Do your profits increase gradually or in leaps?

im playing 2/5 cc NL and I've decided to control the pot size unless I have the nuts. Im winning some big pots but mostly small pots which are all adding up. I found that this makes bad beats less costly. Like after three betting a set id go all in I'd lose my buy in. Now I am keeping the pot size moderately big and it helped a lot.

Im just wondering is that the norm for most players? Small steps in profit over time or big leaps?

Failing to get max value will cost you more than it saves you in the long term.

ryanmccauley211 said:

im playing 2/5 cc NL and I've decided to control the pot size unless I have the nuts. Im winning some big pots but mostly small pots which are all adding up. I found that this makes bad beats less costly. Like after three betting a set id go all in I'd lose my buy in. Now I am keeping the pot size moderately big and it helped a lot.

Im just wondering is that the norm for most players? Small steps in profit over time or big leaps?

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don't play scared. it's fine to take down small pots but you want to get their stack.


let's say you have AcQc and are on the button. You and the villain each have 100bb stacks. UTG open rases 4bb and you 3bet to 13bb and he calls,so there is 27bb in the pot.

Flop comes down KcTd4c.

You flop a 4flush but opponent leads out for 14bb. What do you? Do you call in the hope of turning a flush? That only happens 18% of the time. Say you call and the turn is a blank and he bets again? Then what? Pot is 55bb and he makes it 30bb. You now have 73bb. Are you going to call again? Are you going to shove? If you shove and miss you lose your stack. If you call and the river is makes your flush and he checks and you bet, will he call?

Now let's take it back to the flop. He bets 14bb giving him 73bb behind. You have 87bb. If you re-raise it to 42bb he would need to call off over half his stack, which he may not do with TPTK or QQ or something. If he folds, you make an instant profit of 41bb. If he has a large pair or a set he may just shove. In that case the pot is now 83bb and he shoves his 73bb behind, making the pot 156bb. You only have 43bb left, giving you 4 to 1 odds but if you call you will win 1/3 of the time. So if you did this 3 times and he called, twice you would lose 43bb for 86bb and once you would win 156bb for an EV of 70bb.

Don't think about pots and hands, think about long term profits.

ryanmccauley211 said:

im playing 2/5 cc NL and I've decided to control the pot size unless I have the nuts. Im winning some big pots but mostly small pots which are all adding up. I found that this makes bad beats less costly. Like after three betting a set id go all in I'd lose my buy in. Now I am keeping the pot size moderately big and it helped a lot.

Im just wondering is that the norm for most players? Small steps in profit over time or big leaps?

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Your right.

But when your ahead you have to get the most out of it. The example you gave is bad because you need to get it in most of the time with a set.

Sounds like you've found a good way to counter aggression and the bluffing tendancies of your opponents. By getting to showdown more often with showdown value, you're able to extract more value, instead of getting blown off your hands with raises on earlier streets.

I agree with TDS, that checking down sets is a no-no (you should consider that a big hand and get your money in). The same with fx's example with a huge combo draw and overcard.

I'd say I play a similar style to the one you described, but I'm also able to earn a lot by making aggressive stabs at pots when I don't have showdown value.

If you have a profitable or breakeven red line, I think the style you described can be profitable overall. If you have a declining red line, I'd say you're just going to turn into a tight passive nit with a lot of new leaks from this overly risk-averse style.

In answer to the big chunks / gradual increase, I'd say I'm somewhere in between....gradual increase with occasional big chunks up and down.

It sounds to me that you've had a few bad beats (like we all have) and are now playing a little scared. If you are scared to get your money in with a set (especially middle or top set) when you aren't extremely deep stacked you are playing far to scared. If you don't take the most profitable line, or a line that is at least as profitable as you can, then you are going to lower your win rate. If you take this to an extreme you may actually lower your win rate till it's in the red.

Pot control is a VERY important subject, one I haven't got completely yet mind you. There's a mantra that has been going around for far longer then I've been playing poker; Big hand big pot, small hand small pot. What that means is on your hands that aren't that great (TPGK or even bottom two pair on a three flushed flop) you want to make sure the pot isn't huge. On the flip side, with top set on a rainbow board you want to try your best to get it all in.

If you are scared to get your money in with a set (especially middle or top set) when you aren't extremely deep stacked you are playing far to scared.

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Can we suppose you flop a set of eights, you called a preflop raise to 8c, some other donkey came along, 27c in the pot. Are you suggesting we just jam our remainder into the pot and hope for a caller? Perhaps this is an area I need to work on, in this position i look at the pot and think ok potsize bet might not get called, 3/4 pot then if called ill do this on the turn and river and call any all in.

My stats are 23.7/5.6, am I prf so little that the reason I get folds all the way round if i open sometimes. I mix my aa kk qq raises beween 8-26c preflop, i have a feeling i get more action with the bigger raises but just havnt seemed to win enough of my fair share of them so far.

twoturntablez said:

Can we suppose you flop a set of eights, you called a preflop raise to 8c, some other donkey came along, 27c in the pot. Are you suggesting we just jam our remainder into the pot and hope for a caller? Perhaps this is an area I need to work on, in this position i look at the pot and think ok potsize bet might not get called, 3/4 pot then if called ill do this on the turn and river and call any all in.

My stats are 23.7/5.6, am I prf so little that the reason I get folds all the way round if i open sometimes. I mix my aa kk qq raises beween 8-26c preflop, i have a feeling i get more action with the bigger raises but just havnt seemed to win enough of my fair share of them so far.

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in your example; say like vllain will call an .08 bet 3 times out of four and fold 1 time. your profit is the money in the pot (.16) + the .08 he calls for .24 cents*3 = .72/ 4 = 18 cents. Now let's say you bet .27 but he will only call 1 out of four times and fold the other 3. So 3 times you win .16 and the fourth you win (.16+.27= .43) for a total of .91/4 = .23 cents. So even though your opponent will fold more often to a big bet, when he calls you win alot more. Think about when you have AA and bet and everyone folds. Why? Because they fear you? No, because none of them had a hand worth playing against you for a raise. When you do a get a call what do you hope for , opponent has KK or QQ. They're going to get it in, which is good for you. When you have a big hand get the money in because weak hands will fold to too much pressure and big hands aren't going anywhere.

the chance of being out-setted happens so little you would be throwing money away long term if you dont try and get the most cash in the middle of the table when you make one.

twoturntablez said:

Can we suppose you flop a set of eights, you called a preflop raise to 8c, some other donkey came along, 27c in the pot. Are you suggesting we just jam our remainder into the pot and hope for a caller? Perhaps this is an area I need to work on, in this position i look at the pot and think ok potsize bet might not get called, 3/4 pot then if called ill do this on the turn and river and call any all in.

My stats are 23.7/5.6, am I prf so little that the reason I get folds all the way round if i open sometimes. I mix my aa kk qq raises beween 8-26c preflop, i have a feeling i get more action with the bigger raises but just havnt seemed to win enough of my fair share of them so far.

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Your plan is much better than just blindly jamming with any set.

However, I think what he was trying to say was that if you are folding sets against flush draws or straight draws or possible over sets then you are playing way too tight

24/5 isn't great, you want them to be much closer together. Playing 6max something like 24/18 would be good - you need to raise a lot more when entering pots pre-flop rather than just limping, especially when you are the first one to act