Do the best MTT players gamble more???

Hi all.

Been playing at lower limits recently, trying out my own version of the Ferguson challenge - what a bore!!!

Anyway, I have been watching a lot of poker, playing low limits with ppl who are good player.

What I have noticed recently, is a lot of the `good` players seem to be happy putting their tourny life on the line with a draw, even if they are not getting the pot odds. (Only river to come, flush draw, pushing all in when they are getting 2:1, that kind of thing)

I suppose its a LAG strategy, in a way, but how do they do it???

Do they simply accept them may go out early or mid tourny, or, if they catch, they will change the game and become a strong contender?

I think this strategy seems to apply to all forms of poker.

Any thoughts or comments guys???

At times, i will change my style up and chase flushes or straights. I usually will accept my fate(win or lose) and move on. My goal, always, is to win, so, i will go and chase these when i believe the stats say that i will hit again. for me, its all about my perception of whether or not it is time for me to hit, and the situation and how much it could benefit me.

ellisman7 said:

At times, i will change my style up and chase flushes or straights. I usually will accept my fate(win or lose) and move on. My goal, always, is to win, so, i will go and chase these when i believe the stats say that i will hit again. for me, its all about my perception of whether or not it is time for me to hit, and the situation and how much it could benefit me.

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So, simple question, what is your ROI, and biggest tourny win, and profit (over what period)

I have seen this a lot too. I sometimes think that maybe I do not gamble enough in similar scenerios. I guess it's just what they feel at the time like ellisman says sometimes you have to go with your gut if you feel your draw is going to come.

Ronaldadio said:

Hi all.

Been playing at lower limits recently, trying out my own version of the Ferguson challenge - what a bore!!!

Anyway, I have been watching a lot of poker, playing low limits with ppl who are good player.

What I have noticed recently, is a lot of the `good` players seem to be happy putting their tourny life on the line with a draw, even if they are not getting the pot odds. (Only river to come, flush draw, pushing all in when they are getting 2:1, that kind of thing)

I suppose its a LAG strategy, in a way, but how do they do it???

Do they simply accept them may go out early or mid tourny, or, if they catch, they will change the game and become a strong contender?

I think this strategy seems to apply to all forms of poker.

Any thoughts or comments guys???

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The next time someone pushes all in for 2:1 see if they have a low M, at that point people will push in with almost anything. If they are pushing in with medium sized stacks then they may feel they need to make a move now to have a shot at winning the tournament later.

Steveg1976 said:

The next time someone pushes all in for 2:1 see if they have a low M, at that point people will push in with almost anything. If they are pushing in with medium sized stacks then they may feel they need to make a move now to have a shot at winning the tournament later.

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I understand that, however I mean early to mid tourny.

Like one of the other guys I feel that I get late in a tourny with a low chip stack.

So I`m thinking these guys think "I`ll either get to the first hour with 4 times the starting stack or I`ll bust out" a bit like taking a rebuy mentality to a non rebuy tourny.

MTT's are both an investment in time and money. Early on, it's a +EV play to gamble on a big draw, even if you aren't a favorite based on the TIME investment. It's to your advantage to "go big or go home" in these smaller stakes MTT's. Do you really want to wait for premiums and slowly get blinded out to squeak into the money for a $0.41 profit after 2.5 hours of play?

Thats the rationale for gambling early on.

Ronaldadio said:

I understand that, however I mean early to mid tourny.

Like one of the other guys I feel that I get late in a tourny with a low chip stack.

So I`m thinking these guys think "I`ll either get to the first hour with 4 times the starting stack or I`ll bust out" a bit like taking a rebuy mentality to a non rebuy tourny.

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Effexor is right, most of the time in those situations, win or go home.

Ronaldadio said:

So, simple question, what is your ROI, and biggest tourny win, and profit (over what period)

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no idea, i havent played poker much lately due to college.

Effexor said:

MTT's are both an investment in time and money. Early on, it's a +EV play to gamble on a big draw, even if you aren't a favorite based on the TIME investment. It's to your advantage to "go big or go home" in these smaller stakes MTT's. Do you really want to wait for premiums and slowly get blinded out to squeak into the money for a $0.41 profit after 2.5 hours of play?

Thats the rationale for gambling early on.

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This could also be the reason why some of the lesser players win tournys?

They don`t know when to fold and some of the better player will be gambling?

I do agree, and I think I might start to give it a go

Ronaldadio said:

Anyway, I have been watching a lot of poker, playing low limits with ppl who are good player.

What I have noticed recently, is a lot of the `good` players seem to be happy putting their tourny life on the line with a draw, even if they are not getting the pot odds. (Only river to come, flush draw, pushing all in when they are getting 2:1, that kind of thing)

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In your semi-nebulous example the LAG is pushing here, not calling, so maybe they thought they had some fold equity for their semi-bluff.

Anyway, I will say "no" good players do NOT gamble more. In fact repeatedly telling myself not to play big pots without a big hand (NOT tptk!) was a big key to my winning even the most recent bd freeroll. I have repeatedly seen very good players (combu comes to mind) AVOID marginal situation by opting to fold. Good players want to play small ball poker if possible.

I think some of the "Pros" on TV have that go big or go out approch. Even the 10K buy-in can pale in comparison to the side games.

aliengenius said:

Anyway, I will say "no" good players do NOT gamble more. In fact repeatedly telling myself not to play big pots without a big hand (NOT tptk!) was a big key to my winning even the most recent bd freeroll. I have repeatedly seen very good players (combu comes to mind) AVOID marginal situation by opting to fold. Good players want to play small ball poker if possible.

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I concur.

I do reasonably well at MTTs, and I feel my edge is in post-flop play and in low-M situations in the later stages of the tourney. I am perfectly happy to stay around average stack for the first hour or hour-and-half, and don`t generally try any heroics to build a big stack early on.

I have reached three final tables so far this week, and was in the top ten at the first break in only one of those. In the other two, I came from the middle of the pack. It`s easy enough to do when the blinds are high and the pots are large.

I generally throw my stack around (bet/folding type stuff) much more than AG/combu/knowledgeable players mainly because I've started adapting to a more LAG style than most people here play, so I guess I'm in this category. I obv don't call off my stack getting 2:1 on a flush draw with only the river to come, but I definitely have a wider pushing range than most because I find that it leads to more deep finishes/early bustouts, which is what I look for more than a lot of itm finishes but less FT finishes. This is why I've recently found that I either FT or go bust before the money in big MTTs, rather than the many low itm finishes I used to have in my MTT career. CC events are a different story that I can't explain :/

OP surely has more to do with FE than gambling with bad odds?

But as usual I agree with AG (safest option ) in that the best build a stack through small ball when they can - apart from in turbos where gambling early is more important usually yadayadayada.

Ah well I probably wouldn't listen to me anyway the last time I got to HU of a big MTT was almost 2 months ago

Egon Towst said:

I have reached three final tables so far this week, and was in the top ten at the first break in only one of those. In the other two, I came from the middle of the pack. It`s easy enough to do when the blinds are high and the pots are large.

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This is a great tournament strategy. There's really no point in gambling big early on. You've most likely never played your opponents before, so you don't have much of a read on them. Also, you should work on getting a nice tight and aggressive image so when the blinds do start to matter and tables aren't getting broken up as often, you can steal a couple blinds here and there in addition to a couple pots from your premium hands. I find that there's always going to be somebody who's going to be a major big stack because of the amount of people willing to gamble big early on will dump all the chips onto one lucky person but it's just that, luck. Use a little bit of a strategy and not gambling big early on will give you more consistent results in the long run, plus it's fun to double up from the dumb bigstacks who try to run over everybody.

aliengenius said:

In your semi-nebulous example the LAG is pushing here, not calling, so maybe they thought they had some fold equity for their semi-bluff.

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I was being vague a little. What I mean is early in the tourny and facing an all in call.

I think it depends. I don't play many MTT's although I intend to start. I have played some in the past though. Have won one and finished on the final table a few times.

The way I see it, if you feel you are one of the best players in the tournament, if you have a good game on the flop. You want to avoid marginal situations. However if you feel you are getting out played on the flop. Then pushing the better players around to make big decisions before the flop is to you advantage

Ronaldadio said:

So, simple question, what is your ROI, and biggest tourny win, and profit (over what period)

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With a lot of very loose players, these answers will be a very mixed bag. Got into a HU with one guy in a small MTT, really loose, very, aggrseeive. He had played nearly every pot for the last hour, raising from any position. So, during a break, I looked him up a couple places. His OPR was microscopic, I mean REALLY low, he had come into this tourney with an out of the money streak near triple digits, but his ROI was huge. Conclusion? At some point, his frankly maniac style had paid off for him big time, and he had not given it all back.......yet.

So, it's a high risk, potentially high reward way of going at poker. It's sort of like viewing a poker game like it was a slot machine. When it pays off, it can really payoff. I expect the variance factor would drive me berserk, but to each his own(veiled Elvis reference ).

BTW, I lost when I called his allin w/ A-10 suited, and he paired a 3 from his 3-8 offsuit..

I prefer the small ball approach, but I have learned to at least recognize that occasionally, it will be an early BIG BALL (dancing, music, champagne).
I used to dislike getting big hands early. I would prefer to lounge around watching the players, having fun, getting reads, waiting patiently for that much better than a coin flip opportunity. All good players will vary their approach, some will just barge on through. Those barger's are marked players, they seldom last long. They get nailed once, twice, and the 3rd time is their doom. That's when the middle stages kick in.

But when the cards are flowing like nectar, it becomes BIG BALL time, and since those opportunities are rare, a cautious approach, no all-ins, but putting the presure on, can be very advantageous.

There is not a lot of gamble involved until you get into your game 'life' situation.

I am relatively new to tournaments, but I have noticed that in MTTs, especially the ones with >100 entrants the trend you stated is true. More so in the bigger buyin events >$20. I think the main reason is that there is so much value in chipping up in these tourneys. If you enter the higher blind stages with a larger chip count, you can build up your stack relatively risk free in a lot of situations just through stealing. It also makes gambling with short stacks a little easier later on when you have the correct odds to call with a wide variety of hands. While there is value is simply cashing in one of these events, I think the more aggressive players build up chips early and coast to final tables. I try to play slower structured events as people are more easily pushed off hands. I think on pokerstars where tournaments move more slowly (15 minute levels) this strategy works very well after the first 3 levels where blinds become very important.

I guess I'm just an aggressive player who doesn't like to wait for hands and get blinded off. I have weak short stack play, so this has worked for me lately.

tournaments suck, cause its so long and usually something bad happens to me and i win min money that doesnt justify me playing for 3 hours.