Determining Hand Ranges

Hi all,

Ok, I'm trying to improve my game by defining players hands preflop. I'm attempting to do this by counting the amounts of hands volunatarily entered into pots for specific players and using this count to put that player on a typical range. This is so that I can narrow the range down post flop...

Does anyone know of any literature that's currently available online or in books?

I've had a scout about, but from what I've seen the stuff out there looks a little wishy washy imo - nothing what I would call concrete. I'd really like to see something that someone has dedicated some little time to rather than a quick article that's been published giving a rough idea of what to expect. A book with a high content on the subject would be ideal.

Please note I'm no interested in using software to do this for me, since I would like to use these techniques both online and in live games.

Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Paul

can't help you Paul but glad to have you join us . maybe you can post your question in strategies if you get no answer here . good luck Paul

Here is a good breakdown of percentages with a fairly good top down selection of hands played.

http://www.tworags.com/index.php?ACTION=charts&todo=view&ID=82

Now, you have to combine that with the notes you have on the player since some will favor things like suited connectors or Axs more than others...

And all other player data is important... If your opponent is positionally aware then you have to account for the variance in his selection based on where the button is.

And if he is in a blind, how he plays (or if he gets to limp) will also vary and you have to be aware of it.

http://www.pokerstove.com/

http://pokerazor.com/

Yeah it's software, but it give you ideas in what to expect from ranges/equity that you can sort of automate for yourself with practice.

here is a good artical on hand rangees

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/micro-stakes-pl-nl/unbelievably-long-guide-hand-reading-631/

Hi,

I'm sort of thinking that I'm going to initially build a matrix profile initially with the hands I see and confirm/cross reference it with played hands count %...... I guess that I'm also going to have to come up with some widening/expanding of the ranges in consideration w.r.t. the position of the player and how much of an idiot he is...

I'm going to have to visualize some key profiles and percentages, along with all the other poker rubbish you have to remember - brain melt down - lol. A lot of work, but doable...

Thanks for the input all, its apprecated.
Paul

Moved to Strategies...maybe you will get a little more input here.

Paul_G said:

Hi,

I'm sort of thinking that I'm going to initially build a matrix profile initially with the hands I see and confirm/cross reference it with played hands count %...... I guess that I'm also going to have to come up with some widening/expanding of the ranges in consideration w.r.t. the position of the player and how much of an idiot he is...

I'm going to have to visualize some key profiles and percentages, along with all the other poker rubbish you have to remember - brain melt down - lol. A lot of work, but doable...

Thanks for the input all, its apprecated.
Paul

Click to expand...

Not bad to begin with, but remember thet two people playing thee top 20% may be playing slightly different cards.

What you need to do s to taylor your 20% to the indervidual. So start with a basic model, but if ou see a guy playing a lot of aces then think to yourself.. if he plays all aces ... what might he not play in order to still be getting the figure of 20%

If you havnt seen someone play suited connecters.. then maybe he dosnt play them.. or now with enough frequency to include it in their range.

Remember that if you think someones range for say pairs is AA-77.. then most likely they wont play any pair lower than a 7... but then again its not impossible that they might still play 66-22.. especially if their stack becomes either large or short.

Remember that cards that are well inside their range are more reliable than those on the egdes.. because they may or may not be playing them due to position or just because they feel there is a reason to do so (or not).

The tighter their range the more accuracy you will get.

Whilst its very likely thet their cards are within their range.. dont completely assume that they wont be playing cards outside their range.. stick with the range.. but if the pot seems to be getting bigger than ususal... dont assume they must be bluffing because the nuts is outside of their range.. maybethey took a shot, maybe their range has changed.. or maybe they just misclicked and got lucky!!

Also If you do go with the matrix idea.. post your results on the forum for others to get a look at too.

Hi,

Yep totally agree with all you've said there. This is more or less how I'm planning on doing things. These are per player by the way and for cash games. I suppose you could use it to some extent for live tourneys but you keep getting moved about and it gets annoying/hard having to start from scratch.

1. I'm going to sort of remember about 10+ matrices and their associated %s of premiums, premiums+broadways, premiums+broadways+suited aces, premiums+broadways+suited aces+connectors..... blha blah - you get the picture.

2. I'm going to count the amount of hands people are playing for each orbit. I think if you do it this way, its easier to remember.*

3. Take into consideration of what hands just fall out these ranges and adjust for position/type of player etc.

4. Correlate this with hands shown down.

Note: I'm not totally relying on this info for defining 'exact' hands. I can only narrow the range down after i've got more info on later streets and playing accordingly. It's going to be used as an addition tool for hand reading rather than an exact science. Sometimes its going to be wrong because people like to not so much 'mix it up', but play stupid hands from time to time simply because they just feel like it. At least I'll know that probably they should hold a certain type of hand. I've noticed from my experience that in live games this actually applies more to people have have been doing well in the last hour and are well above the initial buy in level. As for online, anyone could have any range of ridiculous hands and they usually do. Don't get me started about online rants of 1/2/3 outers that alway hit against me........gggrrrr.

* I was reading an interesting chapter in a book by Darren Brown for memorising numbers - well recommended purchase - at the very least its interesting... for £5 its not doing to break any piggy banks or anything.

If you're interested - 'Tricks of the mind'...
Amazon.co.uk: derren

I've sort of mangled it to use at the poker table. Basically there's system you use for numbers. You associate numbers with visual representations. I think the ones he uses are something like:

1 - Bun; 2-Shoe; 3-Tree; 4-Door; 5-Hive; 6-Sticks; 7-Heaven; 8-Gate; Nine-Lime; 10-Hen;

Then what I do is associate each position at the table with a number. For example in 6th position I associate the Devil (666) with that place. By position I mean the position of the seat relative to the dealer - not the button. So the 1st position is the position directly after the dealer - and always is regardless of who has the button.
So, assuming this guy enters the pot 8 times in an orbit, I build a little story in my mind that the devil is hitting someone with some sticks or whatever. That way I can stand a chance of remembering how many hands each player has played. Darrens book explains it better - and if you can't get to grips with it, there's some funny stories of tricks he played on people - haha.

The stories of the people who are very active at the table stand out with this approach.

All that I need to do now really is memorise the charts... You can use the software links to create your own chart. Highlight the area from the matrix and represent as a % of the 169 total combo of hands I think it is. (total different combination of hands). Then as Moneymaker always says, 'practise practise practise'.

If you see me outside Kings Cross Station next year selling the latest edition of the Big Issue, you know how its gone.
http://www.bigissue.com/

Paul