Defending your Button

J

JJW87

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OK so I just made a thread on playing from the blinds and what range of hands to cold call with.

Keeping with the subject of cold calling I would like to know what range of hands you guys are defending your button against.

I am not a big fan of cold calling but understand that when in position on the button lots of hand play well, like suited connectors and suited one gappers.

Facing a UTG open from a typical 22/18 TAG I will probably just call with AJs+, KQs+ 22-TT and 3-bet AK, JJ+.

Now facing an MP or CO open I would like to start and widen my range a bit with hands that play well in position. What I am unsure about is what hands I should be just calling with and what hands I should be 3-betting to take the initiative.

Say MP opens and CO calls should I be 3-betting a merged range or a polarized range ? Obviously against villains with 60% or under I think I should be 3-betting a merged range like AJs+, KQs+, AQ+, TT+.

This is my cold calling range I have come up with JTs, QTs, KTs, KJs, QJs, KQ, ATs, A9s, AJ. Should I widen it a bit more and add hands like T9s, J9s, 98s, 87s ? I just feel like I am loosing out on a lot of pots by being quite nitty and not wanting to get involved in pots unless I am the pre flop aggressor and have taken the initiative.

Against most of the half decent regs that have a higher fold to 3-bet % and know it is generally bad to call 3-bets OOP do you reccomend more of a polarized range ? Keeping some strong hand in like AJs+, KQs, KJs, QJs, ATs by just flat calling, and 3-betting premium hands AK, JJ+ and also some bluffs with hands like A2s-A5s, K6s-K9s, Q6s-Q9s. (Do you think hands like A2s-A5s play better as a flat in position than a 3-bet ? I am a little unsure here) Whereas I am pretty happy to 3-bet K6s-K9s, Q6s-Q9s rather than just call as they may be dominated by hands like KQ, KJ, QJ etc.

Also I will call a raise from any of the 3 positions before me with small-medium pocket pairs.

So again any feedback or criticism is welcome :)
 
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Weisssound

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I think your perception of range is too dependent on position and not dependent enough on the player, and your own timing. In general I don't think there's anything wrong with the ranges you've assigned, but the approach can't be so formulaic.

Ultimately, you want to look at the big picture and think "how do I get the most value in a situation."

Here's two examples - TAG UTG raises 4xBB. You have:

a) 78s
b) 44

Scenario A: That's a fold most of the time. Like 90% of the time. You need 1:2 and you're paying 1:1.5 . -EV. Your implied odds: not so good. Gonna be hard to get value with obvious straights and flushes on the board, and the occasional reverse odds on the flush are pretty crushing.

Scenario B: That's a fold or a call-or-raise 50/50. 44 is really not much worse than 99 except for the counterfeit possibilities. Against the majority of villain's range we're slightly ahead, and against the villain's range that we're vastly behind we still have implied odds from set mining. What matters here are: a) how big is the villain's stack size (is it worth it) and how call-stationy is he (can we get it if we hit?). Also, will the big blind or small blind be coming along? Cause 44 is decent heads up but not so good multi-way.

All this stuff sums together into what folks call "spots." Finding a good spot to fold, call, or raise is the combination of all possibilities - your cards, their ranges, their tendencies, your image, dynamics between players, etc.

In the right context, "mistakes" can be correct plays... like 3-betting A7s pre flop to an UTG raiser from UTG +1. That's a terrible play unless: your UTG is tight-ish, you are tight, your UTG knows you know he's tight-ish and you know he knows you play tight, the rest of the table is likely to fold, and you are willing to give up the hand if the flop gets weird. Flop came KQJ, two hearts, UTG checks to me, and here, conventional wisdom would be to c-bet but that's a really bad spot for that. Which is where I ****ed up the hand. I ended up winning it but I ended up going in for the whole stack with only 44% equity in the pot which isn't a good thing.
 
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JJW87

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Thanks for taking the time to explain your reply :)

I agree that most of the time I operate by default mode which is a big leak for me. I will do things like open xx from MP or 3-bet xx from the BTN etc without taking in to consideration who is to my left or in the blinds. Do they 3-bet/squeeze a lot, do they have a high cold call % from the blinds, do they have a low FTS %.

It is something I need to work on and I think maybe cutting down the amount of tables I play will help this, maybe drop to 6 instead of 8 giving me that few more seconds to act therefor giving me a little extra time to think through my decision rather than it being somewhat robotic.

Interesting what you say about the 44 hand making a case for either of the 3 options. I mean usually by default I would flat 44, and maybe once in a while fold if there was an super aggressive player in the blinds who likes to squeeze a lot, as I don't really want to be calling a 3-bet only with the intention to set mine, however if UTG calls the 3-bet also then I suppose calling to set mine is OK as if I do make a set I am more likely to get paid off in a multi-way pot rather than if I was just in a heads up pot.

Would never of thought of 3-betting with 44 to be honest, what is your reasoning behind this ? Surely we cant raise 44 for value vs a TAG UTG open ?
 
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Weisssound

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I can make a case for 3-betting 44, sure. With a number of caveats.

Even if our UTG raiser is playing a tight range, and we assign him:

AK, AQ, AJ, ATs, KQs, that's about 60 combos we're slightly slightly ahead of.

77-AA, that's 48 combos we're way behind.

So a flat call with 44 in any one specific situation is likely to be ahead, but in all situations is likely to be behind and -EV if not for the implied winnings of a low set and if we have some bluff strategies in place as well. So just thinking about it that way, folding or calling are both absolutely fine and really hinge on understanding your opponent.

But let's say we 3-bet.

Now we divide our opponent's range differently. What folds OOP to a 3-bet pre flop, and what doesn't?

Folds: 77-TT, AJ, ATs - so we 24 combos that are crushing us, and 22 combos that we're slightly ahead of. That's not bad!

Calls/4-bets: JJ-AA, AK, AQ, KQs (sometimes). So 24 combos ahead, and what I'll call 34 combos slightly behind.

SO when we three bet here, we have approximately the same ratio of combos that beat us vs. combos that we have a slight edge on. But we also have our opponent on a narrower range (and AK, KK, AA and really QQ should have put in a 4-bet - so if we know our opponent we can narrow this down further).

We also have a bigger pot in position. That's rarely a bad thing. More information + bigger pot in position + we are the aggressor in the hand now.


All that said, I definitely wouldn't be 3-betting 44 100% of the time. I think it's a fairly even split between folding, calling, and raising low pocket pairs based on our opponent and also our own timing. The added benefit to 3-betting light is that it (naturally) widens our 3-betting range which helps us get called and raised when we do have QQ+.
 
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JJW87

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Great post again, Thanks :)

Really impressed with your thought process. Also by flatting some times then 3-betting other times it balances our range and keeps opponents guessing, and as you said gets us more action when we do have a premium hand.

If UTG raised them MP flat called would you still consider 3-betting from the BTN with 44 or would you prefer to just call since you would be getting great odds to set mine.

If you don't mind me asking what site do you play at and at what stakes ?
 
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Weisssound

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With an UTG raise and a MP caller, I'm usually folding 44. Unless I think MP is calling light (pretty common) and UTG is passive enough to fold whatever he raised with. But most of the time UTG will put in a 4-bet with most of his range, and I have to fold there anyway.

The implied odds have to be 8:1 or better. And that's a judgement call. On the one hand, with two people in the pot the chances are better that one of them catches something worth calling a few bets with. On the other hand, with two people in the pot people tend to value their cards differently. Lastly, there's really not too many good boards for getting max value from a low set. If the board is connected then I might lose the hand anyway a significant portion of the time. If the board is disconnected then I just have to hope UTG has AA/KK/QQ and isn't willing to let it go... which happens a lot at lower stakes.

I don't think folding or calling is a mistake, but I think 3-betting with a low pocket pair is going to be a mistake most of the time.


Anyway, I play most profitably on .5/1 tables. 1/2 the players start thinking, so I have to slow myself down and make more marginal plays which doesn't always end well. Occasionally I'll venture up to 2/4 just to test myself and have some fun.

Although I can crush .25/.50 Zone. I play Bovada.
 
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Weisssound

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Just another quick word on the low pocket pair squeeze thing:

Set mining is fun, and *can* be profitable long term when done right. But in most spots it's actually not profitable.

Bad players make money in the short run, and lose money in the long run.
Good players lose money in the short run, and make money in the long run.

UTG raises, MP calls, just fold 44. You'll bleed out more blinds than it's worth over time until you really understand the spots where set mining works.
 
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JJW87

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Just another quick word on the low pocket pair squeeze thing:

Set mining is fun, and *can* be profitable long term when done right. But in most spots it's actually not profitable.

Bad players make money in the short run, and lose money in the long run.
Good players lose money in the short run, and make money in the long run.

UTG raises, MP calls, just fold 44. You'll bleed out more blinds than it's worth over time until you really understand the spots where set mining works.

Good you say that as I was going to ask why you think it will be better to fold 44 here, as I would of thought this would be a perfect spot for set mining to be honest.

The reason I say this is because at the stakes I usually play 4NL-20NL players usually have a hard time getting away from top pair type hands and even two pair hands.

Would you consider calling if you and at least one other player were deep stacked ?

What in your opinion would be a typical good spot to set mine ?
 
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bbiase

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What in your opinion would be a typical good spot to set mine ?

Someone might correct me if I'm wrong, but I find good spots for set mining pots when I'm in position up against players that are:

1 ) aggressive post flop players who makes attempts to double c-bet/makes triple barrell bluffs.

2) players who tries to get three streets of value on top pair/overpair type of hands.

3) when you believe you are facing multi-way pots.

4) players who can't get away from strong aces types of hands.

5) players who chases draws.
 
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the defense of the button , who has already read me will know that my middle name is not luck so my experiences defending the button is extremely horrible , when I want to defend my button and make pre flop my opponent doubles me opportunities and my little credibility I takes to pay and want to keep trying to think my hand is the best and my thought is never good so I do not do well .
 
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Weisssound

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Good you say that as I was going to ask why you think it will be better to fold 44 here, as I would of thought this would be a perfect spot for set mining to be honest.

The reason I say this is because at the stakes I usually play 4NL-20NL players usually have a hard time getting away from top pair type hands and even two pair hands.

Would you consider calling if you and at least one other player were deep stacked ?

What in your opinion would be a typical good spot to set mine ?

That's the thing, there isn't a typical spot. But the situation needs to have a few things going:

1) You feel you can get (preferably) ten times your investment. If your villain is short stacked, this is NOT a good time to set mine.
2) If you feel you can balance your play with either (a) very good reads (occasionally 55 will be best against two players, and often against one) and (b) SMART bluffs. These things will raise the overall EV of your play, and you can start making the excuse to set mine.
3) You can get away from your set if need be. The reverse implied odds for a low set are worse than the implied odds which is the other reason it's not a great idea.

EX. I had JJ on the button (1/2 table). I raised to $5. BB 3-bets to $17. I elect to flat. Flop comes A J Something, I hit middle set, yay. Villain leads out another $17 (which should have sent off a red flag...). I raise to $68. Villain re-raises to $110.

So clearly here, objectively, I should be folding this... of course I didn't... That said I wasn't originally set mining, but the point stands.
 
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Weisssound

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Someone might correct me if I'm wrong, but I find good spots for set mining pots when I'm in position up against players that are:

1 ) aggressive post flop players who makes attempts to double c-bet/makes triple barrell bluffs.

2) players who tries to get three streets of value on top pair/overpair type of hands.

3) when you believe you are facing multi-way pots.

4) players who can't get away from strong aces types of hands.

5) players who chases draws.

Absolutely. Set mining in and of itself is -EV, unless you do it in spots above. The key being you are looking for spots where you can get a lot of value. I would just watch out with #3. You have to really really adjust your game multi-way and know both of your opponents.


Set mining can be super profitable. Especially if you can get into the hand cheaply and in position against players who don't let go.
 
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bnasp2

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Good thread.
When reading it I realized I definitely have to change my play with low pocket pairs.
 
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