Crushing 2NL but struggling with 5NL

6

6bet me

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I decided to take shots at 5NL zoom. I currently have a 5bb/100 win rate at 2NL zoom over 43k hands, so I thought I would do okay at 5NL.

But the session went horribly. The players were extremely aggressive and were playing like how you'd expect 5000NL players to play. They were constantly making huge plays like double/triple barrel bluffing, hero-calling my triple barrel bluff with Ace high, they would never miss an opportunity to squeeze if anyone flat-called a raise preflop, they would always re-steal when I tried to steal the blinds and often they would even light 4bet me when I tried to light 3bet them! It was insane... I expect that kind of hyper-aggressive action at the super high stakes, but I didn't expect it at 5NL zoom.

In under 1000 hands, I lost 6 stacks, which means I have to win 15 stacks at 2NL zoom to recover from that.

Has anyone else experienced something like this? Ever taken a shot and went on a massive downswing? It just seems like the difference between 2NL and 5NL players is massive...
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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Bad swings usually means tilt or bad playing. It does for me anyway. Ive been reading on tilt which i have done on the past but i have a tendency to win decent a few days but the odd one or two days i lose big.

Usually a typical downswing would mean ppl calling u down with nothing... u have a lot of 2nd best hands.

Bad plays or tilt for me is calling 3bets from the blinds light and just chasing draws with reverse implied odds
 
BentleyBoy

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Ok. First things first. In my opinion the first thing you have to do when you take a step up is to ignore the fact (in your mind at least) that you are making that step up.

It's no different to playing football at a lower level and then being signed by a big team and training and playing with intnational stars. Don't be awe struck. They are all just people who have an opinion about themselves and whom we all put on a pedestal .

My approach when changing levels, is ignore the newness, disregard any status you may wish to attribute to those players who are already there (they too may have only just made that step up, or they may be there to eat you up) and top thing..... Play tight to start with until you have truly assessed what standard of player you are up against and what it is really like playing at that level. Don't generalise on a few losses. It's really easy to generalise about aggressive players beating your good and not so good hands with aggression. They may be expecting weaker players to give up on good hands, and that is just what is happening. So play tight, build yourself a reputation (and some self confidence) where you start not losing and start winning and then assess and re-evaluate how you choose to play.

But remember, poker is about playing the situation, not the player alone, nor your hole cards alone. If it continues not going your way, drop back down a level and start winning again and reassess your readiness to step up.

Good luck.

BB
 
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razzor94

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My advice is to get away from zoom poker until you have at least 80-100 BI for the level you are playing. So for 5 NL i would recommend 400-500$ on your BR. It can be a fast way to build up your bankroll but the downswings occur more often also. On most of your opponents you wont have any info so your post flop play matters much more than pre flop. If you are unconffortable with playing many 3Bet pots, whether you have a big hand or not, its going to be a strugle for you.
 
6

6bet me

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I just feel that players are bluffing me a lot more at 5NL. A lot of my losses came from players triple barrelling me: the first two barrels they'll have air (Ace high), then they'll hit their Ace on the river and I'll pay them off with a pair of K's or whatever.

Also, one time there was a really wet board and the river completed both a flush and a straight, as well as pairing the board and making full houses possible, but the guy continued firing (roughly 80% pot every street with a jam on the river). I called him down with AT (pair of Aces, Ten kicker), determined not to let him bluff me (because I suspected he was just using the wet card to scare me off my Ace pair), and he showed AQ (pair of Aces, Queen kicker). So he basically turned his hand into a bluff on the river and I hero-called with a slightly worse hand. It was so frustrating because I finally built up the courage to start making these kind of hero-calls against players who are constantly barreling at me, only to be punished by a slightly better hand that turned into a bluff.

Also, I am getting 3bet and 4bet way too often. I'm not used to this level of preflop aggression. It's really difficult for me to know when someone is making a fancy play (light 3bet, light 4bet, bluff squeeze) and when they legitimately have a hand.

EDIT: Thanks for the advice BentleyBoy. And razzor94 I don't know if I can follow the 80-100 BI. It would take me forever to win $400 at 2NL. And I think if I lost more than 15 BI at a stake, then I should just accept that I'm -EV and move down.

EDIT2: Yeah razzor94, I definitely think that playing postflop in 3bet/4bet pots is a big weakness of mine. Sometimes I fire 2 barrels and lose half my stack, only to fold to a raise on the turn or a 70% pot shove on the river by the villain. Other times I just C-bet the flop then check/fold after that and give up the massive pot. Other times, I stack off with my overpair, only to lose to a set, a flush or a better overpair. But either way, I seem to lose.
 
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IPlay

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Can you post some hands like some of your failed triple barrels that get called by A high? Also, 2NL to 5NL is quite the step up because it is full of the other players that couod beat 2NL that moved up so your win rate will be lower and variance higher. They are adjusting to you better then you are to them so just hang in there, study specific players and be ready to but heads.
 
Zupek

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Try to avoid zoom poker. Keep focus on regular tables and u`ll gonna see a difference. On regular tables opponents are much more worse. Inform us and paste some hands! GL!
 
6

6bet me

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Try to avoid zoom poker. Keep focus on regular tables and u`ll gonna see a difference. On regular tables opponents are much more worse. Inform us and paste some hands! GL!

I prefer zoom though. I find that even though regular tables have softer opponents, I get tilted more, I can't see the tables properly and I don't like it when players sit out and I end up 3-handed.

Can you post some hands like some of your failed triple barrels that get called by A high? Also, 2NL to 5NL is quite the step up because it is full of the other players that couod beat 2NL that moved up so your win rate will be lower and variance higher. They are adjusting to you better then you are to them so just hang in there, study specific players and be ready to but heads.

I realised that it wasn't a triple barrel bluff, but I did bluff the turn and river and I was expecting Ace high to fold:

Effective stack size of $4.83
Hero (SB) has 4h 5h

Hero (SB) posts $0.02
Villain (BB) posts $0.05
4 folds
Hero raises to $0.15
Villain re-raises to $0.45
Hero calls $0.30

FLOP ($0.90) is Ts Th 7d
Hero checks, villain checks

TURN ($0.90) is 6h
Hero bets $0.50, villain calls $0.50

RIVER ($1.90) is 2s
Hero bets $1.45, villain calls $1.45

Villain shows Ah 8c (Ace high) and wins pot $4.60
 
IPlay

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First problem with that hand is raising 45 suited BvB. The lowest connector I am raising here is probably 86s-87s. You just really can't do much with 5 high.

The 2nd mistake is calling the 3 bet with just 5 high while being OOP. This is actually a HUGE leak you should watch out for. I would not call a 3 bet with this hand on the button vs a BB 3 bet, let alone in the SB.

3rd mistake is betting the river after he calls turn and a blank falls, he played his hand as a bluff catcher and got ya. I do like betting turn since you turned loads of equity but I would bet closer to 75% pot because if you had a hand, you would bet bigger because of draws. Once he calls and a total blank falls, it is hard to follow through. You can bet any heart, any diamond, and probably an 8 on the river and get folds. Basically, your turn bet was weak and your river bet looked like it wants folds when every draw misses.
 
luizmarinho

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First problem with that hand is raising 45 suited BvB. The lowest connector I am raising here is probably 86s-87s. You just really can't do much with 5 high.

The 2nd mistake is calling the 3 bet with just 5 high while being OOP. This is actually a HUGE leak you should watch out for. I would not call a 3 bet with this hand on the button vs a BB 3 bet, let alone in the SB.

3rd mistake is betting the river after he calls turn and a blank falls, he played his hand as a bluff catcher and got ya. I do like betting turn since you turned loads of equity but I would bet closer to 75% pot because if you had a hand, you would bet bigger because of draws. Once he calls and a total blank falls, it is hard to follow through. You can bet any heart, any diamond, and probably an 8 on the river and get folds. Basically, your turn bet was weak and your river bet looked like it wants folds when every draw misses.

Very good read mr. IPlay :). I saw on a book that from 2NL to 5NL is one of the biggest edge differences of limits at poker. And I agree 100%. I had the same issue as you when I tried to play 5NL, thats because as you said, players are a lot more agressive and not too predictable as the 2NL, they will 3bet you with any hand they want play, not only with premium hands like happens at 2NL, zoom is full of regs and is hard to have a good win rate because you dont know who you are facing hand by hand. Anyway is nice and my favorite cash game style for pratice edge post flop.
My advice is try to make a solid bankroll before move up (for example, if you have 50 buy ins for 2NL, then you must have atleast 100 for 5NL) thats because you will have to adapt to the new game style and that might cost you a little.
 
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MinhANguyen

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Yes, Zone poker is a lot harder than the regular cash games. I think there are more fish at cash games. To be profitable at zone, especially 25NL, postflop and preflop need to be very solid. You have to be able to hand read, value bet well, and bluff catch at the right times. I probably make more bb/100 in the cash games, but I find that the high volume is better for me at Zone. I do 2 zone 2 cash on bovada.

Also, Zone is very very swingy, and can lead to tilt pretty easily. A bigger BR is probably better for Zone (30 BI+ minmium).
 
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Hi, I'm a regular of NL5 zoom tables. I have a winrate of 5bb/100 in around 200k hands. I know that its tough to change from NL2 y NL5. I use a HM2 and makes it really easy because you quickly spot the rocks and other regulars, the fish and ghe maniac and you playing accordingly to their style. You need a lot of discipline, specially when playing the nits. I remember I folded a set of 3s on a rainbow board Q73. I did it because he had the set of 7s. That was my best fold in my life.
With the HUD you know who's stealing the blinds and 3bet them and win their money, you also know who don't steal the blinds, you know who you should steal the blinds, and when to fold tptk because you are beat. Its really tough but If you study a lot you can win. I highly recommend you to invest 60$ on HM2. Its really useful in zoom, and you collect hands really quickly, specially if you play at 4 tables, and even quicker from the regulars who also play 4 tables.
I still think its beatable without a hud but it helps a lot having one. I'm doing so good, I will jump to NL10 as soon I reach 1000$. I'n sitting on 825 right now.
 
WVHillbilly

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Here is the thing. Every time I have every moved up my initial thoughts were the same as you described in the OP. That everyone was 3betting a lot more. Bluffing a lot more. Making "plays" right and left. But then...

I settled in and realized it was all in my head. I was playing WAY worse every time I moved up. Calling down light. Calling too many 3bets. Failing to be the aggressor. It wasn't the new limit, it was mostly me. I thought it was going to be harder and more aggressive so when it was SLIGHTLY my brain focused on those spots and soon I was just playing bad. I had the same issue between every level from 5 to 100nl.

You just have to get comfortable, play your same game, and get out of your own head.
 
WVHillbilly

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I will jump to NL10 as soon I reach 1000$. I'n sitting on 825 right now.

Why such nitty BRM? You're costing yourself money sticking at 10nl when you should have moved up 30 buy-ins ago.
 
IPlay

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Here is the thing. Every time I have every moved up my initial thoughts were the same as you described in the OP. That everyone was 3betting a lot more. Bluffing a lot more. Making "plays" right and left. But then...

I settled in and realized it was all in my head. I was playing WAY worse every time I moved up. Calling down light. Calling too many 3bets. Failing to be the aggressor. It wasn't the new limit, it was mostly me. I thought it was going to be harder and more aggressive so when it was SLIGHTLY my brain focused on those spots and soon I was just playing bad. I had the same issue between every level from 5 to 100nl.

You just have to get comfortable, play your same game, and get out of your own head.

I never really realized it, but this was true for me also when I started moving up through stakes. Crazy what we can make ourselves believe.
 
MrBadAss

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could be just a downswing or could be in your head playing a higher limit ,sometimes happen, but in my opinion 2/5/ 10 nl are the same limits, stick the good play and results will appear, dont worry on getting those stacks back on 2nl again and go up, its not a sprint, its a marathon, good luck
 
WVHillbilly

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I never really realized it, but this was true for me also when I started moving up through stakes. Crazy what we can make ourselves believe.

I think it's true for most people really. We make such a big deal over "moving up" that we're afraid we might not belong which leads to not wanting to get "pushed around" which leads to some really bad calls that we wouldn't make at our old level. The only time this doesn't really happen for most people is when we start out running hot at a new level. When you do that, by the time the hot streak is over you're settled in and playing your best.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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Here is the thing. Every time I have every moved up my initial thoughts were the same as you described in the OP. That everyone was 3betting a lot more. Bluffing a lot more. Making "plays" right and left. But then...

I settled in and realized it was all in my head. I was playing WAY worse every time I moved up. Calling down light. Calling too many 3bets. Failing to be the aggressor. It wasn't the new limit, it was mostly me. I thought it was going to be harder and more aggressive so when it was SLIGHTLY my brain focused on those spots and soon I was just playing bad. I had the same issue between every level from 5 to 100nl.

You just have to get comfortable, play your same game, and get out of your own head.

Yeah I tend to agree with this, or at least at 4nl-50nl which I have observed.

The only thing that really changes is the proportion of good players to fish.

Good players generally tend to play ABC poker. Bet hands fold air and play draws in position with correct odds. Dont overcomplicate a task which is essentially very simple.
 
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You should be good

I think a good idea is to keep crushing the 2NL with more tables and after you make enough so you can lose you can move up to 5NL till you become better there too. It's more about strategy there:)
 
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Although I don't think there's much difference between 2NL and 5NL, there is a significant difference between 5NL, 10NL, and 25NL.

At 5NL and lower, no one will respect your raises. At. All. The limits just aren't high enough. Very, very few of the players care if they lose $5.

Starting at 10NL and especially at 25NL, there are more players who care about the finances involved and will respect bets and raises with some consistency.
 
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