Crazy 1/2 NL at Borgata...

Whats up everyone. I had an interesting time at The Borgata poker room this weekend. This was the most loose/aggressive game I've every been in. Allow me to lay this out for you:
I was at a 1/2NL table. I bought in for $200. The average stack was around $400. So I was the short stack. 4 of the guys at the table were good friends. They all play together in home games. They were all very loose/aggressive players. The average preflop raise was between $15 and $35. They were all blowing off their stacks to each other and one other very talented player. Apparently money was no object for them. They all rebought into the game for the table max at least 4 times each.

These guys were making preflop raises with hands like Q3 off suit, 8c7c, K9 off suit, and other such hands. They would create some big pots with weak holdings (my opinion). Sorry this is so long but I want you all to get a good idea of this game.

Here is the hand I wanted to ask about along with some other ideas related to strategy.
I'm in late position and get dealt Ah As. as usual the pot gets raised to $25 by one of the lags in UTG position. Two of the other lags call along with 3 other players. With so many in the pot I decided to call. Sb and Bb fold. Flop comes Js 3h 3c. Pot is $178. The UTG Lag bets $155. He gets called by his friend then the other pushes all in with about $400. All others fold including me. UTG calls. Turn is 4c. River is 7d ( Js 3h 3c 4c 7d ). The all shows Jd 8s. The UTG mucks his hand. This is the kind of stuff they were doing.

So did I play the Aces wrong? I called because there were so many in the pot. I figured that if I reraised I would have got at least 3 callers. Was I right to figure that the aces in this situation would be a weak favorite?

I'm proud of myself. I'm a fairly tight player. I've been trying to loosen up my game. Usually these types of players would have annoyed me and got me frustrated and make stupid mistakes. However I stayed calm, relaxed, and patient. Should I have tried to mimic their style, take chances with marginal hands or did I do the right thing by sticking to my style? Whats the best way to play against these types of players?

I know this was long and I apologize for it but its necessarry.
Thanks in advance for your opinions and especially your help.

Errrr even a tight player would 3bet AA here. (Hint, with the pot size, shove pre-flop)

Is this a joke thread ?

always shoving pre





always

I lolled a little. Because there were so many in before the flop means you have to shove pre-flop. I don't hate the call pre as much as folding the most perfect flop you could hope for.

No guts, no chips. The smooth call pre-flop just kills me. Particularly if you have been folding a lot to their aggresiveness.
I would have rather got it in than let one of them hit a set of 3's on the flop.

all-in, at some point. what did you expect to hit, quads, in order to call?

and really, even if you are just a small favorite with your AA, you win proportionally much when you do win. so against one person you are likely at 80+%, against 4 you'd be around 50%, but none of them would likely have more than 15...

and also, if you can't be more aggressive in the right spots, then just don't play at that table?

Thanks for the cold hard truth. Not a joke thread tenbob. Well the good news was i only lost $40. still learning. Thanks to you all.

I was honestly surprised when you said you just called pre-flop with aces. Raise, raise, raise in that position. I'd AT LEAST 3-bet here, probably would have pushed all-in. When you have aces you want to take as few people to the flop as possible to avoid someone hitting trips or something if they're just limping in with crap cards

You would walways want to get it all in good on the flop. You should never let that many people see a flop while you're just holding AA.

You were in a great position and as someone else said, no guts no chips

Aces can easily be cracked but as a poker player you pray to see them in your hand.
I had a guy in Vegas doing the same thing to me at a table, got my aces and totally doubled up against him.

Next time you push (or at least raise enough to commit yourself)

I don't want pile on here.

My suggestion is HAVE A PLAN. I don't care that you flatted preflop. Tell us why. I don't care that you folded after the flop...tell us why.

Have a plan for each and every hand. Next you must execute. Maybe you flat called in LP b/c you planned on moving all in no matter what after the flop. Maybe you folded b/c the only other tight player was shoving after the flop.

I commend you for putting this out there. It sounded like you got AA but just didn't think about how you wanted to play it or what you wanted to accomplish.

You should of had a mouth watering predatory shark attacking baby seals feeling here.

You had the correct read! As soon as you have a read develop a plan on how to combat it. The read is useless if we don't do anything in accordance with it. Keep studying and work on your plan while driving to the game, before you sit, and all the while your playing adjusting and tweaking.

Then when it comes time have the courage to follow through on your reads!

tusabes said:

My suggestion is HAVE A PLAN. I don't care that you flatted preflop. Tell us why. I don't care that you folded after the flop...tell us why.

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Gold

Dude seriously shove pre-flop, it's the easiest move you could have made there and the 100% correct one, I say NEVER slow play aces. Against all of these players AA is probably only 50% to win now.

I would also recommend shoving post-flop but this one is a little questionable.

tusabes said:

I don't want pile on here.

My suggestion is HAVE A PLAN. I don't care that you flatted preflop. Tell us why. I don't care that you folded after the flop...tell us why.

Have a plan for each and every hand. Next you must execute. Maybe you flat called in LP b/c you planned on moving all in no matter what after the flop. Maybe you folded b/c the only other tight player was shoving after the flop.

I commend you for putting this out there. It sounded like you got AA but just didn't think about how you wanted to play it or what you wanted to accomplish.

You should of had a mouth watering predatory shark attacking baby seals feeling here.

You had the correct read! As soon as you have a read develop a plan on how to combat it. The read is useless if we don't do anything in accordance with it. Keep studying and work on your plan while driving to the game, before you sit, and all the while your playing adjusting and tweaking.

Then when it comes time have the courage to follow through on your reads!

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Brilliant reply.

As I said before, I hate the flop fold so much more than the Pre-flop call as there's merit to calling pre and shipping the flop

Hey Tusabes.
Your right. I didn't have a plan. Why the call preflop? With so many in the pot I figured that the aces were slightly weaker. If I had raised then I would still get a few callers. So I called just to see the flop. Why the fold? With the way the game was going anyone of them could have been holding JJ 33 73 93 Kj any assortment of good to bad hands that hit. In retrospect it was hard for me to put them on hands due to the hands they were playing. Now I see that I should have just pushed all in. I folded because I figured I was probably beat. I should have taken the risk. I have lost big pots before. Its poker. I get it. Im working to correct my mistakes.
Thanks and continue the feedback.

shove shove shove, more with that kind of players, most likely u get call with 2nd pair so there is always value on big pairs.

troubledman,

Were you afraid to lose $200?
If the answer is yes, don't play this high until you are comfortable with the possibility of losing your buy in. We never want to play with scared money...EVER! That's never ever play with scared money.

Think about control and how you're going to get control. Executing a plan gives you control. By not having a plan you're playing a reactive game. You don't want to be reacting to what is happening. You want the other players reacting to your execution of a great plan.

Let's say you did raise all in preflop. Think about all the stress you've just relieved yourself of. You don't have to make anymore decisions. You've got the money in with the best hand. Your work is done. Now you're just waiting to see how many mistakes the other players are going to make. If you win of ZERO concern b/c we can't control the outcome.

I suggest picking up Super System 1, Doyle Brunson's first book and reading the hold'em section. This should open your eyes to how being the aggressor makes the game so much easier.

What's your plan for the next time you encounter a similar type game?

Tusabes
I wouldn't say I was afraid to lose the $200. I was more determined to not lose it. I've been on some bad runs. At times bad beats and other times over playing my hand. I made up my mind to not lose.
As far as a plan... Not sure how to develop one. Example: next game I play I'm going to raise every pot I'm in preflop and post flop. Or only raise with top hands in position.
How would I develop the plan?
I understand that I have been playing a reactive game. Trying to change that.
As far as a plan for the next time I'm in a similar game: I was thinking to loosen up my range and reraising, in position, and not being afraid to push it all in. How's that sound?
Super System will be in my library by this weekend.
Thanks for taking the time to help me out. I appreciate it.
To all others please keep the advice coming.
Thanks.

i cant believe you flat called a 4 way pot with AA :O

oh em gee brah, raise that up and get all your chips in on that flop 7 days a week

troubledman said:

Thanks for the cold hard truth. Not a joke thread tenbob. Well the good news was i only lost $40. still learning. Thanks to you all.

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Wrong. In reality, you probably lost $400 or more

If you're running well and happen to be in A/C there is not a better place to go play the lower stakes games like 1/2 or 2/5NL than Borgata...its the loosest room by a country mile...I honestly don't know which place would fall 2nd...probably Taj...but Borgata is just chock full of idiot 22 year old kids who think they're the next Tom Dwan...you'll see 1 or 2 at every table with 1,000 in front of them in a 1-2 game, the thing you don't know is that they're in for 3,000 already or they lost 5,000 in the last 7 days....I even played 3-6 limit there one night because I couldn't even see or walk straight enough to play 1-2 NL and even that table on a Tuesday night in November in the most peak part of the off season for A/C you can get was insane for a 3-6 limit game....there were regularly pots over 200$ and not a player at the table was under the age of 45 other than me....that room brings out the craziness in even the geezers....that said, DO NOT go there if you are in the middle of a cold run because you will be absolutely cleaned out...its not the game for someone who is not having the cards fall their way.

tusabes said:

By not having a plan you're playing a reactive game. You don't want to be reacting to what is happening. You want the other players reacting to your execution of a great plan.

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I understand that it's better to be proactive than reactive but surely position and the way the table is playing comes into it too. If the table is playing tight you loosen up and vice versa. That's being reactive isn't it? Certainly in position be proactive, like in the hand the OP talks about. In that position it has to be a shove surely. Which brings me to this.

LuckyChippy said:

As I said before, I hate the flop fold so much more than the Pre-flop call as there's merit to calling pre and shipping the flop

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Given the way the OP says the other players were playing i'd have been worried about one of them having the three. That's why i'd shove pre. I definitely hate the pre-flop call more than the post-flop fold. If they were playing more sensible hands the J33 looks like a good flop for his AA but like i said, the nature of these players would've had me worried about one of them having 43 sooted or some such speculative hand. Could you explain the merit of flatting Chippy.

Be gentle with me i usually don't get involved in strategy stuff!

troubledman said:

Hey Tusabes.
Your right. I didn't have a plan. Why the call preflop? With so many in the pot I figured that the aces were slightly weaker. If I had raised then I would still get a few callers. So I called just to see the flop. Why the fold? With the way the game was going anyone of them could have been holding JJ 33 73 93 Kj any assortment of good to bad hands that hit. In retrospect it was hard for me to put them on hands due to the hands they were playing. Now I see that I should have just pushed all in. I folded because I figured I was probably beat. I should have taken the risk. I have lost big pots before. Its poker. I get it. Im working to correct my mistakes.
Thanks and continue the feedback.

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Apart from what has been said ITT before I'd recommend not searching for hidden monsters under the bed, especially if you have a great hand in position preflop.

If you had raised pre you would have at least most probably folded out all X3s up to K3o.

If my math is correct the pot size preflop (before it was your turn) was (1+2+25+25+25+25+25+25= 153$) so you can definately shove your AA.

Now let's compare what happens when you shove and get 3 callers (with totally random hands) compared to the way you played it pre

(let's assume the blinds folded both times) and shoved the flop.

#1 (pot = 178$, 7 handed) - the way you played (minus folding the flop + shoving it)

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
16,015,076 games 120.803 secs 132,571 games/sec

Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.736% 38.52% 00.22% 6168335 35284.37 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 08.741% 08.01% 00.73% 1283131 116808.79 { random }
Hand 2: 08.765% 08.04% 00.73% 1286922 116861.21 { random }
Hand 3: 08.740% 08.01% 00.73% 1283090 116692.37 { random }
Hand 4: 08.758% 08.03% 00.73% 1285883 116680.71 { random }
Hand 5: 08.747% 08.02% 00.73% 1284447 116388.87 { random }
Hand 6: 08.755% 08.03% 00.73% 1285599 116528.87 { random }
Hand 7: 08.757% 08.03% 00.73% 1285911 116513.79 { random }

I stopped the enumeration after 2min since there won't be great changes after that.

Basically you're about 39% likely to get between 178$ (it's checked to you at flop, you shove and get 0 callers) and 1403$ (everybody shoves) now, no matter the board. (average would be 790.50$)

#2 (pot 803$, 4 handed)

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
257,298,867 games 310.533 secs 828,571 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 63.834% 63.61% 00.22% 163669865 573190.17 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 12.056% 11.59% 00.46% 29829464 1191188.50 { random }
Hand 2: 12.058% 11.60% 00.46% 29835539 1190759.00 { random }
Hand 3: 12.052% 11.59% 00.46% 29818891 1189970.33 { random }

So about 64% of the time you win 803$ and 36% you lose 200$.

Conclusion:

#1: 39% to get 790.50$ on average
#2: 64% to get 803$ on average

I hope I don't have a great flaw in my thinking....but this is why I would shove pre (even if I knew I'd get 3 callers)

EDIT: BTW I like how you reacted to the criticism.

Troubledman, i think the best advice we can give you would be that you need to practice. And obviously for that you don't want to risk too much money, so instead of playing 1/2NL live, I think you should deposit on FullTilt and play a little lower. 0.5/1NL would be good, and you should probably try out rush poker which is sooo much fun.

BelgoSuisse said:

Troubledman, i think the best advice we can give you would be that you need to practice. And obviously for that you don't want to risk too much money, so instead of playing 1/2NL live, I think you should deposit on FullTilt and play a little lower. 0.5/1NL would be good, and you should probably try out rush poker which is sooo much fun.

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Can you pass me a Kleenex please? Your post dribbled sarcasm all over my desktop.