cooler or bad play

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djpokerman

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I recently played in a 1-2 nl loose cash game, preflop raises were 20-25 dollors, i'm in posiotion i got A-K o raised to 20.00 got 3 callers, continuation bet on a flop for 50.00 on a flop of K 10 6 two spades one, one folded now heads up he min raises another 50.00 i shove all in for another 180.00 he calls shows K-10 s turn is a 4c and river is a kd giving him a full. please advise
p.s I put this guy on a flush draw, A-Q, A-J he was a loose agressive player, i had a back door flush draw as well
 
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GWU73

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Top pair in a 4way pot is a marginal hand. Min raises are often used as pot builders. An agressive flush draw may raise, or check raise all in here but min raising has little fold equity and puts the raiser in the position of calling $180 to win the $210 in the pot if you shove. Your opponent likeky wants you to get all in. They may still have a flush draw, but most likely have 2 pair or a set. Folding is usually correct here.
A large part of playing live poker is reading your opponents. If you are not already doing so; watch the players watch the flop and during the hand to get a read. There are excellent videos on tells on youtube. Mike Caro has several on there.
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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Raise is way too big preflop.....just bc others are sizing incorrectly that has no bearing on your sizing in this case.

Also, why are you betting so much on the flop....?
 
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djpokerman

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thank you for your replies i appreiciate it
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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Raise is way too big preflop.....just bc others are sizing incorrectly that has no bearing on your sizing in this case.

Also, why are you betting so much on the flop....?

This ^

Also when you get raised on the flop, its a tough spot but probably a fold. Hes rarely doing that with a weaker hand.
 
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aomdmm

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Raise is way too big preflop.....just bc others are sizing incorrectly that has no bearing on your sizing in this case.

Also, why are you betting so much on the flop....?



I disagree with your bet sizing comment, though I'm open to hearing an explanation if you have a mind to share.

My thoughts are if the table is loose/aggressive enough that $20 becomes the standard raise then you can't afford not make that move or you wind up with a lot more callers than you should.

I play tables where anything less than 16 pf will end up family except in rare cases..
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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I disagree with your bet sizing comment, though I'm open to hearing an explanation if you have a mind to share.

My thoughts are if the table is loose/aggressive enough that $20 becomes the standard raise then you can't afford not make that move or you wind up with a lot more callers than you should.

I play tables where anything less than 16 pf will end up family except in rare cases..

I want hands like k10 KJ KQ and k9ss calling...as well as AJ, A10 AXss, AQ...etc.

And furthermore I want room to maneuver postflop and get away from TPTK sometimes for 100BB...with that raise you are basically building a huge pot that will be near impossible to ever get away from if you hit, and driving out hands we want to call.

You are acting as if there is some huge pile of antes in the middle we are fighting for preflop, there isnt.
 
jordanbillie

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But at this specific table a 10x raise is still getting 4 callers with marginal hands. Wouldn't it be a leak to not take advantage of this and only raise 3x-5x?
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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But at this specific table a 10x raise is still getting 4 callers with marginal hands. Wouldn't it be a leak to not take advantage of this and only raise 3x-5x?

But OP just SAID his reasoning was to get fewer callers, lol.

If they are calling any amount with any 2...shove all top 10% of hands or whatever and cashout for mirrions next month.
 
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kanselau

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Raise is way too big preflop.....just bc others are sizing incorrectly that has no bearing on your sizing in this case.

Also, why are you betting so much on the flop....?
hes betting $50 into a pot of $80 is not that much.
 
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kanselau

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I disagree with your bet sizing comment, though I'm open to hearing an explanation if you have a mind to share.

My thoughts are if the table is loose/aggressive enough that $20 becomes the standard raise then you can't afford not make that move or you wind up with a lot more callers than you should.

I play tables where anything less than 16 pf will end up family except in rare cases..
exactly , if the table is so loose that you get 3 callers with 10x raises then bet 20x for value if there still going to call you. your getting killer value with your premimum hands when there calling with K10 etc
 
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kanselau

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I want hands like k10 KJ KQ and k9ss calling...as well as AJ, A10 AXss, AQ...etc.

And furthermore I want room to maneuver postflop and get away from TPTK sometimes for 100BB...with that raise you are basically building a huge pot that will be near impossible to ever get away from if you hit, and driving out hands we want to call.

You are acting as if there is some huge pile of antes in the middle we are fighting for preflop, there isnt.
obviously hes not driving out hands like K10 if hes getting 3 callers with 10x raises and getting a ton of value with his AK , I would take this deal all day everyday.
you want to out maneuver 6 loose players post flop with AQ+, JJ+ ? .
 
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kanselau

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provide stack sizes and positions
reads on players
big SPR with maltiple callers is bad , for TPTK hands
smaller SPR with fewer callers is good
In your example you raise $20 pre got 3 callers , flop ($80) , Asumming relative stack is $250 (provide stacks), SPR is 3.
If on the other hand you raise 3x at a very loose table and get 6 callers , flop ($36), SPR 7
I donk know about you guys but Id rather play a pot of $80 with 2-3 players ,
than play a pot of $36 with 6-7 players and try to out play all of them.

AS played You bet $50 on flop (just over half pot ) witch is ok, villain min raises $50 Flop ($180) , your SPR is 1 and you can not fold with TPTK . If you do this regurally without specific reads you might as well quit playing poker everytime someone min raises.
If your getting this much action with 10x raises pre , this is a great raise with top 10% of hands, villain got lucky in this hand is going to loose alot of money against a strong range with this play in the long run.
BTW where is this game , can I come play:)
 
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Navonod

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Regarding bet sizing at games where the "standard" open raise is rediculously high. I have thought about this a lot lately (I play at a NL200 live game where the standard raise tends to be a bit high, like 4X NOT $20 into a $3 pot) and have been trying to determine the best approach. This is what I'm thinking:
1) You don't HAVE to raise the standard size and, with most hands, it will increase variance (you may say it will always increase variance although I can think of arguments to the contrary.) 2) You CAN raise the standard size and get called by non-premium hands in most games like this 3) You don't have to play anything but premium hands to win eg; just play AKs,JJ+ always bet 10X, get action, create a good SPR for hands that tend to play well in more normal 3/4bet pots (AKs,JJ+ for instance ;) ) and wreck shop.. think small stakes online games circa 2002. 4) You can make more money by playing hands other than AKs,JJ+ against the terrible players that must populate these mythological games that i have not personally seen since, maybe, 2006ish. 5) You will have to introduce some chance of actually loosing in order to do so. 6) If you play other than premium hands you should probably NOT raise $20 to open a $3 pot.
I think the safest way to play these is to turn into a circa 2006 TAG and just wait for premium hands but it could be more profitable to get in their and mix it up with fish. If you plan to just sit on your hands and wait for top 5% of the deck (oldschool raise/fold TAG strat) you will have very little chance of losing but you could win more faster by playing more hands. If you decide to mix it up you just CANNOT be open raising 10X.
I think you could probably change your bet sizes to alter the SPR in a way that would play to the strength of your hand, like 2.5X with 22-66, JTs, AXs type stuff, 5X with premiums and balance as necessary (more by occassionally betting less with big hands than visa versa) but then, like i said, i haven't actually seen a game like this in many years.
Thoughts?
 
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blackknite123

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this is no cooler my friend. obviously the opponent got lucky but a cooler would be if you for example flopped top two instead of him so AK vs KT.

As Ks Td

turn: 2c

River: Tc

winner: K T
 
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Navonod

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not for nothin' but this actually is, as I think most people think of it, a "cooler".
At least the way I THINK most people think; cooler ~ a situation where you are "suposed to go broke".
There's a difference between a bad beat and a cooler. A bad beat/suck out means you got most/all of the money in good and lost where as a cooler could be flopping bottom set vs top set or maybe even AhKh on XhXh2d and losing to... well, anything. I take a cooler to mean any spot where there's just not much you could do to not lose it all.
I've been playin' NLH for a minute and that's the way I take it. Pretty sure that's common way to think of it. I think flopping TPTK with an SPR of 1-ish and losting would be at least cooler-esk
Anyone else disagree w/ me and OP on this? I have been much more sure about things in the past and been wrong. I think I was POSITIVE that trips and set meant the same thing until like a year or two back.
 
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