Considering Quitting Cash Games Entirely

Hey everyone.

So, here's my story: I've been playing online poker on and off for a few years, recently took more of an interest in maybe the past 6 months. Play mostly micro tourneys, with micros cash games here and there. I kept getting put off of cash games because it feels like I just can't do well. I do decently in tourneys, so I feel I understand the game well enough to, y'know, play... But over 2,750 hands on cash games (I know, LOL sample size) I'm down $52. And I almost exclusively play $4 NLHE.

I could be wrong, but -13 BIs over less than 3k hands seems like I might just suck at cash games. It's getting to the point where my losses at cash are now threatening my profits from tournaments, and I don't know whether to "stick with it" or just accept that I suck as cash.

Before I get 20 posts saying "take a break, it happens to all of us," I have tried the week long break, and the studying, and it hasn't done diddly squat for me yet. I'm more looking for - is it even possible that this is a "downswing"? Because I've only been using software to track stuff for maybe 3 or 4 months and I'm a full-time student which is why I have almost no volume in. But starting out with a $50 downswing almost seems like a sign that I should be avoiding cash games like the plague. But at the same time, I've heard that it's easier to be profitable at them and they are lower variance in general than MTTs... Thoughts? Suggestions? Insinuations that I'm an idiot?

well cash def. different than tourney, so tourney success is no indicator of cash success

i won't give too much cash game advice, b/c i prefer tourneys, but there are some solid cash game players on here, so they will give good tips

in my experience with cash, i found that my key to winning was to win more on the nites i was running good than i lost on the nites i was running bad

13bis in 2.7k hands is pretty huge at 4nl but still could be LOL SAMPLE SIZE. Post all of your biggest losses to see if it's variance or whether you suck. If you suck then posting them will only make you better

What are you having problems with. 13 BIs is quite a lot to drop at 4nl especially over such a small sample. Are you playing too loose, calling too much, bluffing too much...?

Tighten your range, and be more aggressive with big hands.

Donk a small pot every now and then so you get your calls... Piece of cake.

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WVHillbilly said:

What are you having problems with. 13 BIs is quite a lot to drop at 4nl especially over such a small sample. Are you playing too loose, calling too much, bluffing too much...?

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This, so much this. My #1 biggest problem is stacking off too light (god damn donkament habits), and just the discipline of playing tight I guess. I'm not sure why, but in tourneys I can play uber-tight when necessary, but in cash games I tend to get LOL-loose at times...

It's partially a tilt thing, that definitely accounts for some of the larger value hands I lose, but dunno. It feels like every time I try to adjust my game, I either end up slipping back, or it just makes no difference.

This thread is probably more just so I could get the long-term tilt out of my system, since I can basically call myself a losing player at cash right now, hehe. In spite of knowing what I'm doing wrong, seeing the support and advice here at CC is helpful. I guess I'll still try to hold onto some shred of hope that I can improve.

Played a session today that went well, actually. Just threw all pretenses of "playing poker" out the window, sticking to premiums etc. Much nittier than I like to be usually (right now at a table with VPIP/PFR of 15/12 over 100 hands), but the biggest thing I'm trying to change is crying calls. I see waaaay more bluffs than there are, and I know for a fact that following the Beluga theorem will save me boatloads more.

I think that writing this post helped me realize just how lag-tardish my play has gotten, and that is helping me with the discipline necessary. Thanks for the advice and support as usual, guys. I appreciate it as always!

Scourrge said:

... Thoughts? Suggestions? Insinuations that I'm an idiot?

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Ok, you're an idiot . Actually, I've read a few of your posts and it seems anything but. It seems you have a fairly good grasp of the game, etc, etc. So, you shouldn't be losing that much, that fast. Could just be a terrible downswing and ridic small sample-size I guess. But, I wonder if you're not playing a little too much "tournament poker" in a cash game. Deep-stacked cash is obv worlds different from tourny play. I haven't played cash in a couple of years now, and def haven't kept-up with cash game theory so I'm not even going to try to give you any advice except to say that if you're primarily a MTT/STT player, then deep-stacked cash is worlds different and you prolly just need to study a little theory.

Big_Rudy said:

Ok, you're an idiot

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Haha thanks for that - I appreciate it too

But yes, I know exactly what you're saying, and agree. As I was saying before, I think that tourney play has made me accustomed to certain tendencies that work extremely poorly in deep-stacked cash games. I have tried thinking of cash games like the very early stages of a deep-stacked tournament, and that can help with the mindset a little bit as well, (but only to a point, since the "goals" of cash vs. tourney play are different).

Right now, I think it's going to be mostly about reminding myself to just use ABC poker and not try to outplay anyone, ever. Value-towning, not bluffing, staying tight, etc.

Scourrge said:

Right now, I think it's going to be mostly about reminding myself to just use ABC poker and not try to outplay anyone, ever. Value-towning, not bluffing, staying tight, etc.

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I would say that is the number 1 skill for success at the low micros.

I wouldn't go as far as saying don't try to outplay anyone. It's more accurate to say that you should work on recognizing good situations. They're there, especially if you don't limit your thinking to big plays / pots. As a fairly common example, when you isolate a passive limper then take the pot by betting the flop after he checks, you've outplayed him.

Cash so so different than mtt's. Alot of ppl have massive difficulties transitioning, so don't feel bad about having a tough start. merge 4nl has several competent ppl-several who are for some reason staying at 4nl even tho they have beaten it. Especially at 6max tables the edges are smaller, but it is still lol beatable.

Arjonius said:

I wouldn't go as far as saying don't try to outplay anyone. It's more accurate to say that you should work on recognizing good situations. They're there, especially if you don't limit your thinking to big plays / pots. As a fairly common example, when you isolate a passive limper then take the pot by betting the flop after he checks, you've outplayed him.

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I guess I meant more that I shouldn't be trying to play at too high of a level of thought - really just need to be one level higher than my opponents.

Played a session today, 3-tabling. About 400 hands, nearly doubled up on one table, busted on another, and broke even on the third, so lost a total of 74 cents... The table I busted on was a combination of a few bad plays coupled with a few "wrong-side-of-the-odds" moments. Times where I basically had to chase because my odds were so beautifully correct like open-ended straight draws with nut flush draws, and the like. Just wasn't hitting enough of that stuff. But I felt I played pretty well overall. The double up was mostly luck though - I was dealt AA for my first hand at the table, ended up 5-bet shoving over a deep-stacked guy who called and flipped over KK. Easy game. So I sat with $8 at the table for the next couple hours... Just didn't get any notable hands after that. Was a back and forth of paying blinds and picking them up.

3K hands is nothing. It could just be run bad or being card dead or not finding callers, or a bunch of other stuff or even combos. If it was 30k maybe we could make some judgments based on it, but right now it is impossible to tell whether someone who lost $52 in 3K hands @ 4NL is bad or good.

What matter is the hands. Hopefully you are using a HUD and reviewing hands after every session.

Reptar7 said:

3K hands is nothing. It could just be run bad or being card dead or not finding callers, or a bunch of other stuff or even combos. If it was 30k maybe we could make some judgments based on it, but right now it is impossible to tell whether someone who lost $52 in 3K hands @ 4NL is bad or good.

What matter is the hands. Hopefully you are using a HUD and reviewing hands after every session.

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Haha I don't know about "nothing." Statistically speaking, yes, a 3k sample is small, but it's not 100... In any event, I know there's stuff I need to work on, so at the very least it's helping me decide to make some changes.

Yes, I use a HUD, and I wish I could say I review every session, but I'm not quite at that level of dedication. I'm a full-time student during the school year, but I just finished exams, so hoping to put in more volume and more studying over the summer (though I'm also going to be doing work in an internship). The way I usually review my sessions is by marking "questionable hands" as they happen so I can find them easily later for review. "Questionable hand" basically meaning any hand where decisions were not particularly straight-cut (dealing with 3-bet hands after the flop), and also ones where I either won or lost a large pot, as these are where big swings can happen.

Yeah ABC poker seems to work best at micro-stakes with recognizing situations in which you can profit. I tried to out play at micros and got killed by crying calls and slow played monsters, I learned that they usually tell you exactly what they have if you have been paying attention to how they play.

the more important question is which do you prefer? tournaments or cash?

PotluckXXI said:

Yeah ABC poker seems to work best at micro-stakes with recognizing situations in which you can profit. I tried to out play at micros and got killed by crying calls and slow played monsters, I learned that they usually tell you exactly what they have if you have been paying attention to how they play.

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Yeah, crying calls were and partially still are a big part of my -EV plays. And the biggest problem is that oftentimes crying calls tend to be for VERY large pots, so they can really decimate your winrate (lose-rate for me?).

Booked my first winning session in weeks yesterday, and had a good session with very marginal profit today as well. Though the money made is nothing to applaud over (I don't think I even beat the rake with my profits today), I know that I'm playing a lot better and I'm regaining some confidence. It also feels good to get more volume in - I actually have the time to play real sessions, and I'm now -$50 over 5,000 hands. Obviously not ideal, but I think that if I can keep my discipline up, I can turn this around in the longrun, and hopefully turn this into a profitable summer.

And duggs, as for whether I prefer cash or tourneys... That's a tough question. They really are different beasts, each with their own complexities. But I think the toughest thing is playing them both in conjunction with each other. The few times I've tried to play cash and tourneys at the same time, it messed with my head just a bit, and I think I played sub-optimally because of it. But even from day to day, I find that focusing on one rather than the other is helpful because I become more immersed in the strategy and theory.

So for now, I'm focusing on cash. I think in the long run it will actually help my tourney game too, since I see the early game as one of the areas of my tournament play that has a lot of room for improvement (well relatively - I have room for improvement everywhere!). I think I play the late stages of donkaments pretty well, which is why I've managed to turn a small profit (okay okay, I know, LOL sample size still).

To finish off the monster-answer to your very simple question: I don't know that I prefer one to the other, but for right now, I'm sticking with cash. The desire to improve at it is a strong motivator for me right now, both in terms of studying and getting in volume. I've played multiple 2-3 hour sessions every day for the past four days (that's almost unheard of for me because of school), and for the past two days I've also put in an hour of study/hand analysis and review. (Who would thunk I could be losing with KK...)

My goal for probably the next few days is to work on playing the pocket pairs from all positions, but especially EP. So far the only pocket pairs I'm profitable with are aces (my most profitable hand type overall), nines, sevens, fours, and deuces. Still kind of LOL sample size for a lot of this, but the fact that KK is one of my biggest losing hands needs to change. I'm going to work on KK, QQ, JJ, and TT all individually and separately, then attack the medium and lower pocket pairs. Wish me luck!

I finally got broken today at merge.haha
I never thought it is so hard in microstake 6max.Really tough. I try to improve and think I am good enough to survive. But unfortunately I still get busted.There seems to be no hope for me

puke said:

I finally got broken today at merge.haha
I never thought it is so hard in microstake 6max.Really tough. I try to improve and think I am good enough to survive. But unfortunately I still get busted.There seems to be no hope for me

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Well, I haven't played cash games seriously since before BF so things may have changed. But, aside from that and assuming that you at least started-out properly rolled, it should actually be pretty hard to go broke at the low micros. Not meaning to insult you or anything, but I'd check your game for some serious leaks. At the low micros ABC poker carries the day. Forget all the fancy stuff, if that's what you're trying.

You are right. It took five months to consume my $150 deposit.
And everyday I feel I got improved. But the end of day finally come.
Anyway I probably will try another deposit. If it does not work, I will give up, maybe.

Big_Rudy said:

Well, I haven't played cash games seriously since before BF so things may have changed. But, aside from that and assuming that you at least started-out properly rolled, it should actually be pretty hard to go broke at the low micros. Not meaning to insult you or anything, but I'd check your game for some serious leaks. At the low micros ABC poker carries the day. Forget all the fancy stuff, if that's what you're trying.

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Big_Rudy said:

Well, I haven't played cash games seriously since before BF so things may have changed. But, aside from that and assuming that you at least started-out properly rolled, it should actually be pretty hard to go broke at the low micros. Not meaning to insult you or anything, but I'd check your game for some serious leaks. At the low micros ABC poker carries the day. Forget all the fancy stuff, if that's what you're trying.

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If you play ABC TAG poker and don't blow off chunks of your roll by playing too much at stakes you shouldn't (due to skill and/or BRM reasons), it's pretty difficult to lose much money at the micros. Over the years, I've seen a lot of players who seem to know enough to win at these levels but who don't. Many of them contribute to this by trying to do too much. You don't need to focus very much on outplaying people who will eventually give you money by making mistakes and poor plays anyway.