Confused about how to play draws

Why everybody say that it's profitable to play your draws aggressively? I don't get it. Ex: I have and the flop is Why should I raise the flop when villain is giving me nice odds to call? OR why should I c-r the flop? Alot of the time I end up missing my flush or my straight, and when I hit it not all the time villain will pay me. So isn't this - EV? can someone explain it to me, because I'm so confused !?

If you need FE and you haven't got any, then folding is probably the best option, but if you do have the odds to call, then calling is obv the best way to go. No point raising your draw if you need some FE but given ranges and action you know there isn't any.

EDIT: having said that, the example you gave has pretty good equity against any range.

You need to realize your equity. In hand example, it doesn't really matter what villain's range is, you have 15 nutty outs and don't always get paid off when you hit. The best time to get the money in is on the flop, because if the turn bricks your equity is cut in half. So basically you're throwing away 25% equity or so by playing passively.

If you play your draws passively and only start betting/raising when you get there, you become pretty easy to play against.:

If you're not check-raising this hand, what hands are you check-raising?

If you're not willing to get the money in on this flop then there's no point in playing T9ss.

nice draw with much opportunity to improve your hand just bet low and let the opponent bet you and if your draw succeeded you crush him

baudib1 said:

You need to realize your equity. In hand example, it doesn't really matter what villain's range is, you have 15 nutty outs and don't always get paid off when you hit. The best time to get the money in is on the flop, because if the turn bricks your equity is cut in half. So basically you're throwing away 25% equity or so by playing passively.

If you play your draws passively and only start betting/raising when you get there, you become pretty easy to play against.:

If you're not check-raising this hand, what hands are you check-raising?

If you're not willing to get the money in on this flop then there's no point in playing T9ss.

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hmmm it makes sense. Let's say I hit my hand. what now? continue with agg or slow it down to let him think I was bluffing (I know it depends on the type of the player, but in general)? AAAND If he shove on the flop can I make the call? (assuming he is 100 bb+). because if he shove with a set he has good equity too.

If they have a set, then they have a set. Nothing you can do about it. You still have outs. Either take it down on the flop or get it all on on the flop.

remus_ny said:

Why everybody say that it's profitable to play your draws aggressively? I don't get it. Ex: I have and the flop is Why should I raise the flop when villain is giving me nice odds to call? OR why should I c-r the flop? Alot of the time I end up missing my flush or my straight, and when I hit it not all the time villain will pay me. So isn't this - EV? can someone explain it to me, because I'm so confused !?

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Ok the reason you want to play (certain draws aggressively), is because you wont get paid if you hit them all the time..

So in the example above there's only 3 ways it can go..

A), Villain checks, you check=which really sucks, because the said person could have nothing on this flop, and/or you miss a chance to TID right now+build a pot for when you do end up hitting

B) Villain bets, and you call=Again weak, because, your draw is so easily seen on this board that if you do end up hitting, you might not get paid...

Than there's option C

C) Villain Checks, you bet, they call or fold, assuming they call...And you miss on the turn, again they check, and now if you do check that sends a message I got nothing, so again you would want to bet...Not Half pot/yet not a quarter either so something in-between both...Now they must make a choice, and depending on there choices you work from there...


As other's have pointed out already, you have alot of equity so be happy to GII with such a beauty of a draw

remus_ny said:

Why everybody say that it's profitable to play your draws aggressively? I don't get it. Ex: I have and the flop is Why should I raise the flop when villain is giving me nice odds to call? OR why should I c-r the flop? Alot of the time I end up missing my flush or my straight, and when I hit it not all the time villain will pay me. So isn't this - EV? can someone explain it to me, because I'm so confused !?

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There's another reason to raise a big draw: for value. If you raise, and he folds, that's still pretty good: you got the money without having to actually complete. If he folds, he probably didn't have anything, and wouldn't pay you if you had checked and completed.

If he calls, that's still pretty good: you could be getting more money into the pot as the favorite. That's what you want to do in no limit. It's even better if he pays you off after you complete, and he doesn't figure you for the straight or flush because you were betting before you had it.

3 reasons:
1- You can win without a showdown.
2- You can build a big pot when you have excellent odds/equity.
3- You become harder to play against, since you are aggressive with made hands and draws. Thus winning you more money in the future.

If you had ace 5 suited and limped in, (diamonds)
and the flop was Q,Q,J (club, diamond, diamond)
Would you go all in if someone shoved before you?

no i would not go all in because if they hit the flop hard u are almost drawing dead

theinmate said:

no i would not go all in because if they hit the flop hard u are almost drawing dead

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Are you serious? How are you drawing dead? Really , Nah you were joking for sure (n1)

playtheman said:

If you had ace 5 suited and limped in, (diamonds)
and the flop was Q,Q,J (club, diamond, diamond)
Would you go all in if someone shoved before you?

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Only if you was pot commited otherwise your draw against their set has less than 30% equity, that said their most likely holding would probaly be a worse diamond draw or possibly a J then you are just under 50/50
In a cash game then easy fold unless you were both shortstacked and tournament dependson Stack to Pot Ratio

playtheman said:

If you had ace 5 suited and limped in, (diamonds)
and the flop was Q,Q,J (club, diamond, diamond)
Would you go all in if someone shoved before you?

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That depends on how much it costs to call, and the odds you're getting. If it's a short stack going all in, and there won't be any more action, I'd call.

If it's a big stack shoving, and I have a big stack, I'm not fooling with that flop. You're probably up against trips already, and there's a good chance he filled on the flop. Even if it's (Q, Q, little) it's still a dangerous flop. You can find better places to get the money in.

Dorugremon said:

There's another reason to raise a big draw: for value. If you raise, and he folds, that's still pretty good: you got the money without having to actually complete. If he folds, he probably didn't have anything, and wouldn't pay you if you had checked and completed.

If he calls, that's still pretty good: you could be getting more money into the pot as the favorite. That's what you want to do in no limit. It's even better if he pays you off after you complete, and he doesn't figure you for the straight or flush because you were betting before you had it.

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This is my thought process in these situations as well. There's the chance you can take the hand down on the flop. Playing aggressively might allow you to buy yourself a free card on turn (depending on position) and with all those outs you want to build the pot for the times you will hit your hand. I really believe this to be the most profitable way of playing those kind of draws and the one you listed is money BTW. Lots of outs.

Consider it from the perspective of trying to get those cards as cheap as possible. So Villain minbets or checks and you hit your hand on turn/river. Now there is no possibility you can win the pot X amount of times with your bet post flop. On top of that, if you do hit your hand, which are have solid odds of hitting in your example, you will pretty much be allowing your opponent to lose the minimum.

The way that you should play draws should be a function of your overall style of play. If you play LAG, then you should play draws quickly as well. If you play TAG, then you should play draws accordingly. If you play really tight and timid, then all of a sudden play draws quickly, your playing style becomes very obvious and exploited.

Cafeman31 said:

If you need FE and you haven't got any, then folding is probably the best option, but if you do have the odds to call, then calling is obv the best way to go. No point raising your draw if you need some FE but given ranges and action you know there isn't any.

EDIT: having said that, the example you gave has pretty good equity against any range.

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This!

Your hand has so many ways to improve. 8 outs to a straight, 9 outs to the flush. I love to semi bluff in this situation because if you hit your hand, which in this spot you are 60% before turn and 30% on river.

So you play it aggressively. Not only does betting/raising give you a chance to win the pot outright, but you are building a pot and have several ways to improve your hand. Betting/Raising outright also gives you the possibility of a free card on the turn if your opponent is worried you are going to raise him and checks then you can check it down to for a cheap River.

In your situation, I would prefer to play tight! Check-call! Honestly, I hate draw! Often leads!

Bet and see if you get a fold, you need to find out where you are. If villain raises fold. If turn is no good, check and wait for villain, you may get check at this point if you have confused villain, if raise fold. River will let you know to bet or fold if villain raises. At worst you have lost 1 bet while having chance to have villain fold, possible good turn card, possible good river which you could have raised on either.

playtheman said:

If you had ace 5 suited and limped in, (diamonds)
and the flop was Q,Q,J (club, diamond, diamond)
Would you go all in if someone shoved before you?

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It's probably not a good idea, especially on a paired board. Obviously if he has quads you're totally dead, but if he has trips or two pair, then even if you hit your flush, he still has outs for a full house. He may have got lucky and flopped a full house, and then your only hope is running aces (or running AQ if he has Jacks full). Conversely you could both miss the turn and river, and you're left with just your Ace kicker to the queens on board. Combo draws can give you better odds, but you could still be up against a full house, or get outdrawn by one.

I played a hand similar to this recently, although I had a straight draw as well.

I raised on the button pre-flop with six handed and got one caller.
Flop came and he shoves.

So, I'm thinking, I have two overcards, open ended straight draw, third nut flush draw – heaps of outs if he has hit a pair, maybe he has A9 or AT. Even if he has T9 for two pair, the flush or straight will be good if I hit it.
I eventually make the call and he shows for a set.
The turn gives me the straight.
Then the river comes and he makes tens full and knocks me out.
Note that he is 60% on the flop, and even after I make the straight, he is still 23%.

Wow very nice thread and very helpful... I was wondering on similar lines and was kind of feeling lost when I played aggressively for my draws... Reason being I thought it was loose and spewy but all these thoughts reinforced what I was thinking.

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The thing is, if you raise there is the equity if the villain folds! I mean, lets say 35% of the time the dude folds to your raise/bet... 55% he calls, and 10% he raises. If you catch the flush when he calls, you'll be flying! He won't expect a lot of the time for you to catch it. And one thing... the hand you showed, you got a straight and a flush draw!!! If the villain doesn't have a flush going too, then your a favorite for almost any hand he could have ! Use the holdem calculator and see. So it's important for you to get value out of your hand! I would usually also bet when I only have one of these draws since the equity for the opponent folding is so good!

When playing your draws the main important thing is who it is against, unless you have a draw illustrated above, some fish will not fold no matter what you do, so don't barrel yourself into an oblivion. Against regs its good to be more balanced, meaning if you only raise with 2p+ you can become transparent them.

Looking through this thread, it feels like not everyone understands the importance of equity or properly understands what equity is.

Whether you call, raise, or fold depends largely in part on the size of the pot, effective stacks behind, SPR (size to pot ratio) and potential fold equity.

Due to equity, there may be situations in which you are behind but it is still profitable to call.

Lets take a look at two situations.

Hero is on the BTN with , 3 limpers to him, Hero calls, SB and BB call. Eff stacks $200

Flop($14)
BB shoves for $200, everyone folds, action gets to hero. As Hero is thinking BB flashes Hero his cards and he has a set of sevens. BB says, "Yeah, I just want to take the pot down now, I don't want to get cracked" what should hero do?

Looking at pokerstove we see that Hero's equity is

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
4,685,660 games 2.547 secs 1,839,678 games/sec

Board: Jh Qs 7s

equity win
Hand 0: 40.301% { Ts9s }
Hand 1: 59.699% { 7c7d }

Click to expand...

We see that Hero has 40% equity. In order to be profitable Hero needs to be getting R = (1-E)/E = (1 - 0.4)/0.4 = 1.5

So Hero needs to be getting 1.5:1 on his money for a call to be profitable but unfortunately he is getting 214/200 = 1.07 on his money.

NOw lets look at that same situation but this time, BB shoves, MP shoves, and action is on Hero. This time, BB shows a set of sevens and MP shows AQ of diamonds. What should Hero do?

Well, looking at Poker Stove our equity improves a touch since MP has removed a fullhouse out

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
7,973,167 games 5.703 secs 1,398,065 games/sec

Board: Jh Qs 7s

equity win
Hand 0: 41.758% { Ts9s }
Hand 1: 55.138% { 7c7d }
Hand 2: 03.104% { AdQd }

Click to expand...

For the sake of argument, lets just give hero the same equity of 40% that he had in the first example. In order to be correct in calling Hero needs 1.5:1 on his money. But now, in this case, hero is getting (14 + 200 + 200) / 200 = 2.07

So in the second case, Hero is getting 2.07:1 on his money which is greater than the 1.5:1 on his money that he needs thus Hero should call. Yes, even though Hero is "behind" it is still profitable for him to make the call.

Now, take into account FOLD EQUITY. When Hero flops big draws like this, being aggressive on each street will usually generate fold equity. If your villain will fold 25%, 35%, or even 50% of the time when you show aggression on multiple streets then being aggressive with strong draws is INSANELY profitable.

Alot of beginners think that a draw is "Not a real hand" and that is the wrong way to think about it. Draws have equity. If you have enough equity then you need to call. If you sense weakness in your villains and/or you have a strong image that can generate fold equity then you need to play your draws aggressively. If you sense you have NO fold equity then you need correct odds to play your draws and if you are getting correct odds (direct and/or implied) you call and if you are not you fold.

Yep