Cold calling vs. 3betting

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Tricky123bet

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So most of you have probably heard the rule: If it's strong enough to call, it's strong enough to raise. Even though I understand that you want the initiative by 3betting, I haven't fully understood this rule. Does this apply to every situation, when you have to choose between calling, 3betting and folding preflop?

For example: A TAG in UTG+2 opens to 3bb, and it folds around to me in the BB, holding KJs. I would call in this situation, getting somewhat good pot odds, and the ability to flop something decent. So the rule tells me that I should also be able to 3bet in this spot, but I'd never do that, given he has a semi-strong range, and I'm OOP. I'd rather just call and see a flop, and play from there.

How do you handle these situations, and what tips do you have for when to cold call and when to 3bet?
 
jomaaan

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At the moment i am playing at the micro stakes and I noticed that 3betting from the bb/sb againt a normal raise from the butten or the cutoff is free money. 9/10 times they fold.

I like 3-betting with low suited aces because they block their strong hands with an ace which they can call with and it can flop some straight and flush draws when playing for a big pot. In general hands that have a plan b are good imo.

When someone raises from early position i call more often.

I have no idea how this works at the higer stakes, I guess they would call a 3bet more often but i dont know at which level that starts. Because of this i almost never 3-bet my monster hands at micro stakes.

When you just call it is important to not give up the pot right after he cbets the flop and you missed. They often miss aswel and check back the turn which gives you the chance to steal it on the river.

I am still learning alot myself, I hope the things I experienced can help you. Have a nice day :)
 
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So most of you have probably heard the rule: If it's strong enough to call, it's strong enough to raise. Even though I understand that you want the initiative by 3betting, I haven't fully understood this rule. Does this apply to every situation, when you have to choose between calling, 3betting and folding preflop?

I don't like this rule, except for opening the pot. If everybody folded to you, you should be raising or folding most of the time (I can see some heads up or tournament spots when it is ok to open limp though). In postflop play or when facing an open raise or 3bet, many hands are too weak to raise, but are playable and when given good price to call, you should definitely call. It will of course depend on positions a lot. When facing an open raise from UTG and you are on UTG+1, your range will be rather narrow so you will not have as many calling hands as on the button in that spot. But still, you should have some calling hands on UTG+1, like maybe 88, 99, TT, KQs, AJs - those hands would be too weak to 3bet with so many people to act behind, but are playable hands with a lot of implied odds if the board comes favourable. On later positions you can even add more calling hands, like lower pairs, weaker suited broadway cards, weak suited aces etc.

Postflop, this is even worse if you treat it as fixed rule, because you often face situations, in which you have some showdown value with second pair or top pair weak kicker - in those cases you want to control the pot and raising is not the best play. Lets say you have 9T on K97 rainbow board in position. This is good spot to control the pot and try to go to showdown (with intention of folding to big bets). You have a lot of other hands to bluff in this spot and there is no need to turn your hand with showdown value into a bluff (there are better bluffs in this range like QJ, QT, JT, 8T etc.)

For example: A TAG in UTG+2 opens to 3bb, and it folds around to me in the BB, holding KJs. I would call in this situation, getting somewhat good pot odds, and the ability to flop something decent. So the rule tells me that I should also be able to 3bet in this spot, but I'd never do that, given he has a semi-strong range, and I'm OOP. I'd rather just call and see a flop, and play from there.

Exactly, you have great price to call, no need to be 3betting here as you would have to fold on any 4bet. I personally like to defend BB and I will call with very wide range like even 97s and all suited aces, even A9-A6, which I wouldn't call with on the button in that spot.

How do you handle these situations, and what tips do you have for when to cold call and when to 3bet?

There are charts with poker ranges for certain spots, which could be treated as a starting point. Of course this will greatly change based on table dynamics. When I started learning poker I haven't been studying such resources, because I was like "ah, it depends on the game anyway", but without solid fundamentals it was chaos ;). You can also run some simulations after spots you played and you are uncertain of.

There is a book about preflop play that I like as starting point. There are more such resources often based on hands history of poker pros.
 
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Tricky123bet

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I don't like this rule, except for opening the pot. If everybody folded to you, you should be raising or folding most of the time (I can see some heads up or tournament spots when it is ok to open limp though). In postflop play or when facing an open raise or 3bet, many hands are too weak to raise, but are playable and when given good price to call, you should definitely call. It will of course depend on positions a lot. When facing an open raise from UTG and you are on UTG+1, your range will be rather narrow so you will not have as many calling hands as on the button in that spot. But still, you should have some calling hands on UTG+1, like maybe 88, 99, TT, KQs, AJs - those hands would be too weak to 3bet with so many people to act behind, but are playable hands with a lot of implied odds if the board comes favourable. On later positions you can even add more calling hands, like lower pairs, weaker suited broadway cards, weak suited aces etc.

Postflop, this is even worse if you treat it as fixed rule, because you often face situations, in which you have some showdown value with second pair or top pair weak kicker - in those cases you want to control the pot and raising is not the best play. Lets say you have 9T on K97 rainbow board in position. This is good spot to control the pot and try to go to showdown (with intention of folding to big bets). You have a lot of other hands to bluff in this spot and there is no need to turn your hand with showdown value into a bluff (there are better bluffs in this range like QJ, QT, JT, 8T etc.)

I think the rule only applies to preflop play, so yeah, just going to be bad following that rule postflop. :p
I suppose it will be different for different kinds of players though, for example someone who is very good postflop might just cold call a lot, because they will be able to make correct reads postflop, while others just might prefer 3betting and being more aggressive as their strategy.
 
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braveslice

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I have always thought that rule is a noob rule used for fish to teach them not to limp, not sure this variation is correctly constructred for 3betting. When 3bettig you want to bet strong hands and too weak to call hands. Surely if one thinks calling, the option of 3betting should be considered too, but no way it's one to one.

In your example OOP with weak hand (9 max right?) is hard to assess because your calling price from bb is so cheap. But you know KJs is marginal call at best thus you could 3bet it as a bluff with blockers unfortunately OOP you will hate your life if called.
 
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AlfieAA

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So most of you have probably heard the rule: If it's strong enough to call, it's strong enough to raise. Even though I understand that you want the initiative by 3betting, I haven't fully understood this rule. Does this apply to every situation, when you have to choose between calling, 3betting and folding preflop?

For example: A TAG in UTG+2 opens to 3bb, and it folds around to me in the BB, holding KJs. I would call in this situation, getting somewhat good pot odds, and the ability to flop something decent. So the rule tells me that I should also be able to 3bet in this spot, but I'd never do that, given he has a semi-strong range, and I'm OOP. I'd rather just call and see a flop, and play from there.

How do you handle these situations, and what tips do you have for when to cold call and when to 3bet?

what are the stakes/effective stacks etc?...how many hands do you have on the dude? any history? what are the players like behind him when he makes the early position 3bb raise...is he looking to get 3betted, cold called by passives? ...

how often do you do 3bets? how often does he do 4bets? how often do you fold to 4bets? how often does he fold to 3bets? what PFR range have you assigned him, and which part of that range would he cold call a 3bet with...does your 3bet range beat his cold calling range

so many questions before we can work it out...

have you built your own ranges, so that you have something to work from?
 
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braveslice

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what do you mean?

You are suggesting that we should first accumulate huge number of hands from villain to be able to play against him, but in reality we hardly ever have enough stats to do optimal play against villain. We can’t just sit with him and fold until we have the stats, villain would be too happy. Thus instead of saying we need more information, imo, it’s better to speculate with what ifs or by discussing default play. In cash games 100bb deep is default if nothing else is informed.

Just to give an example how sometimes it’s impossible to get enough stats, the most hands I have against one player in 10NL is 169 hands out of 32k.
 
AlfieAA

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You are suggesting that we should first accumulate huge number of hands from villain to be able to play against him, but in reality we hardly ever have enough stats to do optimal play against villain. We can’t just sit with him and fold until we have the stats, villain would be too happy. Thus instead of saying we need more information, imo, it’s better to speculate with what ifs or by discussing default play. In cash games 100bb deep is default if nothing else is informed.

Just to give an example how sometimes it’s impossible to get enough stats, the most hands I have against one player in 10NL is 169 hands out of 32k.

what would be the reason for 3betting v calling then? ...or do we just randomly 3bet an early position TAG with a speculative starting hand....would we be 3betting for value or to balance our 3betting range?

ofcourse we dont just sit and fold, but we dont just randomly 3bet either with a hand like KJs...and even if we were 3betting to balance, you wouldnt use that hand anyway, would you?
 
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With all do respect, it seems you are looking for a cookie cutter formula, and there is no such thing in poker, which is a game of variance. Every situation is different, and the cards that you hold in your hand are just a piece of the puzzle. Even with the same cards in the same position facing the same raise from the same position in front of you, you should play differently depending on the kind of players at the table with you.
 
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what would be the reason for 3betting v calling then?

I believe that was the OP's question.

and even if we were 3betting to balance, you wouldnt use that hand anyway, would you?

Personally I would not, however interestingly enough Mike Gano’s guide suggest that KJs would indeed be one of these hands. If we follow that guide on the letter this KJs would be a case of fold or 3bet. Given BB gets so good price though, I honestly don’t see anything too bad by calling if we have any kind of skill edge.
 
AlfieAA

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braveslice81 said:
I believe that was the OP's question.



Personally I would not, however interestingly enough Mike Gano’s guide suggest that KJs would indeed be one of these hands. If we follow that guide on the letter this KJs would be a case of fold or 3bet. Given BB gets so good price though, I honestly don’t see anything too bad by calling if we have any kind of skill edge.

Suppose it would depend on a few things..is there history on the TAG, what is his pre raising unopened range from UTG+2.. How is the table playing, is he raising to isolate..

I know it's just answering questions with more questions, but do we need a little more info do you think?

Then there is post flop...if there's no history and the action go HU, what do we do?

On the current amount of info, I think I would just 3bet or fold... If we flat pre then what can we learn,?
 
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It's so player dependent. Also how many players have already called and what players yet to act are likely to do.
 
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when I play live 3bet usually makes people foldif its big enough or go all in
 
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Tricky123bet

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You are suggesting that we should first accumulate huge number of hands from villain to be able to play against him, but in reality we hardly ever have enough stats to do optimal play against villain. We can’t just sit with him and fold until we have the stats, villain would be too happy. Thus instead of saying we need more information, imo, it’s better to speculate with what ifs or by discussing default play. In cash games 100bb deep is default if nothing else is informed.

Just to give an example how sometimes it’s impossible to get enough stats, the most hands I have against one player in 10NL is 169 hands out of 32k.

Very true, it's hard to have enough stats on your opponent's, especially at the microstakes where there are very few regs.

I'm not looking for any "cookie cutter formula", as titiduru phrases it. I just feel that 3betting/flatting 3bets/4betting preflop is something I need to work on a lot more. So I do not wonder what exact hands I should do what with, I'm just asking with what TYPE of hands, and when to 3bet/cold call with different holdings.
So I'll ask another question I've been thinking of: Is low suited aces (A2s-A9s) better to call or 3bet in the blinds, against let's say a CO open (unknown opponent/ not enough sample size)? Or is it good to mix it up by sometimes 3betting, sometimes calling?

If anyone knows of a site that has strategy on some more indepth on 3betting/4betting and some more advanced preflop strategies, please feel free to tell me about it :)
 
AlfieAA

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Very true, it's hard to have enough stats on your opponent's, especially at the microstakes where there are very few regs.

I'm not looking for any "cookie cutter formula", as titiduru phrases it. I just feel that 3betting/flatting 3bets/4betting preflop is something I need to work on a lot more. So I do not wonder what exact hands I should do what with, I'm just asking with what TYPE of hands, and when to 3bet/cold call with different holdings.
So I'll ask another question I've been thinking of: Is low suited aces (A2s-A9s) better to call or 3bet in the blinds, against let's say a CO open (unknown opponent/ not enough sample size)? Or is it good to mix it up by sometimes 3betting, sometimes calling?

If anyone knows of a site that has strategy on some more indepth on 3betting/4betting and some more advanced preflop strategies, please feel free to tell me about it :)

it might depend on the stakes we are playing if we are looking to balance our calling/3betting ranges....do we have to do it at the microstakes?

for me, i would usually just flat in the blinds if there is a CO open...even if he is loose, what are we looking to achieve with the 3bet with A2s-A9s? how deep are we too?
 
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it might depend on the stakes we are playing if we are looking to balance our calling/3betting ranges....do we have to do it at the microstakes?

for me, i would usually just flat in the blinds if there is a CO open...even if he is loose, what are we looking to achieve with the 3bet with A2s-A9s? how deep are we too?

Always assuming 100bb deep. I tend to 3bet here more because I'm not too confident in my postflop game. Are you saying I could flat more, and maybe float some flops postflop? Cause low suited aces doesn't flop very well.
 
AlfieAA

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Always assuming 100bb deep. I tend to 3bet here more because I'm not too confident in my postflop game. Are you saying I could flat more, and maybe float some flops postflop? Cause low suited aces doesn't flop very well.

yeah 100bb is the standard i suppose...what parts of your postflop game are you not sure about?

yeah you could flat more and float and see if you can push them off the hand in later streets...or maybe some check/raising for value/bluffing...if they always cbet when checked to, you can float like you say or go for the check/raise...suppose it would depend on how the board hits yours and their range.....

maybe it would be easier to extract more value when we do hit favourable flops if we 3bet pre?

we are always looking for flush draws when playing A2-9s...would it be hard to check/call against the CO when we do get a nut flush flop/t/r?

so many possiblities and its hard to determain what would be the best thing to do....do you have any hands that you could use as a practical example?
 
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Definitely just calling should be your best bet
 
Che

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For example: A TAG in UTG+2 opens to 3bb, and it folds around to me in the BB, holding KJs. I would call in this situation, getting somewhat good pot odds, and the ability to flop something decent. So the rule tells me that I should also be able to 3bet in this spot, but I'd never do that, given he has a semi-strong range, and I'm OOP. I'd rather just call and see a flop, and play from there.

How do you handle these situations, and what tips do you have for when to cold call and when to 3bet?

Never overplay KJ. If you call raises, even a single raise, with KJ you will lose all your money. Guarantied like day & night following another cycle of day & night. Even if you flop a Kxx you will not get action from KT or K9 unless you are buried. When you get action on a flop like Kxx your KJ is losing. I'm telling you a secret: If you have KQ in unraised pot and the flop comes Kxx you can be sure you got the best top pair. For sure AK is not out there in play against you if the pot was not raised coming in. Now, some dude may have two pair, that's possible, but you got for sure the best top pair. If you can figure if there's possible and logical two pair is some garbage flop like K83, else you are probably good for now with the best top pair.

KJ is UNPLAYABLE hand. Never play that hand unless in the big blind and unraised pot.
 
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Never overplay KJ. If you call raises, even a single raise, with KJ you will lose all your money. Guarantied like day & night following another cycle of day & night. Even if you flop a Kxx you will not get action from KT or K9 unless you are buried. When you get action on a flop like Kxx your KJ is losing. I'm telling you a secret: If you have KQ in unraised pot and the flop comes Kxx you can be sure you got the best top pair. For sure AK is not out there in play against you if the pot was not raised coming in. Now, some dude may have two pair, that's possible, but you got for sure the best top pair. If you can figure if there's possible and logical two pair is some garbage flop like K83, else you are probably good for now with the best top pair.

KJ is UNPLAYABLE hand. Never play that hand unless in the big blind and unraised pot.

First of all, you wrote many things here like they are absolute truths, while they are not. Of course, on single raised king high board you will have to be careful, but putting villain specifically on KQ every time king hits the flop is ridiculous... A lot depends on the player, sizing etc.

When it comes to calling 3bet, KJo is mostly a fold, but KJs is a call in many spots.

You definitely use too much of always/never for describing poker...
 
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First of all, you wrote many things here like they are absolute truths, while they are not.
=) well observed. When reading his posts, it’s better to leave out every absolutism and every chapter including word Vegas.

This is quite rude, but here what he said when filters on:

Never overplay KJ. If you call raises, even a single raise, with KJ you need to be very careful. With these kind of hands you find yourself tight spots post flop, guarantied like day & night following another cycle of day & night. Even if you flop a Kxx you will not get action from KT or K9 unless you are buried. When stacks are going in on a flop like Kxx your KJ is losing. I'm telling you a secret: If you have KQ in unraised pot and the flop comes Kxx you mostly have the best top pair. More often than not players with AK will 3bet pre. Now, some dude may have two pair, that's possible, but you can be quite confident to have best top pair. If you can figure if there's possible and logical two pair is some garbage flop like K83, else you are probably good for now with the best top pair.

KJ is a problem hand. Never overplay that hand.
 
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Che

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When it comes to calling 3bet, KJo is mostly a fold, but KJs is a call in many spots.

..

Even KJs cannot or shouldn't call a 3bet. However, if a Villain 2bet and you want to get "smart" and showoff how good you are,:congrats:, you can 3bet with KJ and win some or lose your stack. :ciao:
 
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calling is just fine! with hands like kjs you have some good pot odds! plus maybe you will take more value from calling than 3bet! in online poker i think the only hands you have to 3bet is AA-AK-KK!
 
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