Cold call or 3bet.

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davidhoyle107

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Hey guys. I noticed my vpip is about 25 but my pfr is 17. I think I'm cold calling way to much. How often should I cold call vs 3 bet. All this is based off 6 max vs a 3 to 4 bb raise. I play 1/2c poker. Or a better question, in position, what type of hands should I cold call in position. I really only 3 bet with AA kk or qq. Maybe jj if I know they call with air.
 
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if its good enough to call, its good enough to raise is my motto:) good luck on the felts
 
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davidhoyle107

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Does that mean aj suited is worth 3 betting? If not, does that mean that if there's someone really loose at the table a in position call wouldn't be a horrible decision?
 
vinnie

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Ask yourself where your money comes from with your 3-bet. Don't just assume that you should 3-bet any decent hand. This is a complicated subject, and one where different spots need to be evaluated.

AJs on the BTN, let's say. If you 3-bet, why are you reraising? Is it to isolate a loose and weak player? One where you can expect to make a profit post-flop when they call too wide? Then go for it. But, is this a player who is tight and is just going to fold unless they have a great hand? In that case, don't 3-bet with AJs, call. If you raise, you're playing against the part of his range that has you crushed. Call and use position to your advantage.

Think about how the player will react pre-flop. Think about various flops and how you will treat them. What will you do when bet into, when check to, etc. Are you going to get a lot of folds from this player post-flop, so you don't need to hit the best hand? That makes a case for raising and building a bigger pot to steal. There is a lot to think about. But, don't 3-bet AJs just because you think your PFR is too low. Only 3-bet it because you can see that it makes you more money when you 3-bet.
 
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davidhoyle107

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Ask yourself where your money comes from with your 3-bet. Don't just assume that you should 3-bet any decent hand. This is a complicated subject, and one where different spots need to be evaluated.

AJs on the BTN, let's say. If you 3-bet, why are you reraising? Is it to isolate a loose and weak player? One where you can expect to make a profit post-flop when they call too wide? Then go for it. But, is this a player who is tight and is just going to fold unless they have a great hand? In that case, don't 3-bet with AJs, call. If you raise, you're playing against the part of his range that has you crushed. Call and use position to your advantage.

Think about how the player will react pre-flop. Think about various flops and how you will treat them. What will you do when bet into, when check to, etc. Are you going to get a lot of folds from this player post-flop, so you don't need to hit the best hand? That makes a case for raising and building a bigger pot to steal. There is a lot to think about. But, don't 3-bet AJs just because you think your PFR is too low. Only 3-bet it because you can see that it makes you more money when you 3-bet.
So basically if I think i can beat someone's 3 bet calling range do it. Whereas if they 4 bet they have a hand and fold. If I can't beat their 3 bet calling range just call.
 
vinnie

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If you are +EV against their 3-bet calling range, or if you get enough folds that you are +EV from 3-betting even when behind when they call. If they call with low pairs, trying to flop sets, they are "technically" calling with better hands, but you are +EV in this spot because you will get the pot almost every time they miss.

And, sometimes you will 3-bet simply because you are +EV heads up in position against the raiser, but you wouldn't be if you were playing it multi-way. Against a loose button, you might 3-bet om the CO hoping to see the flop heads up against the original raiser.

If your money comes from them folding too much pre-flop, and there are some nits that will open and fold to almost every reraise except with HUGE hands, then you should raise hands worse than AJs. For example, if someone opens 15% of the time, but folds everything but QQ+ and AK, you should reraise all day along (well not so much that they catch on). They are folding almost 90% of their opening range to 3-bets. When you get called (or more likely 4-bet) you're in horrible shape, but you'll win do much dead money that it won't matter that you lose the 3 bet sometimes.

The thing is, if you are folding to a 4-bet and know they are only continuing with monsters, then why waste AJs raising? It plays ok in position, so you're throwing that equity away when you 3-bet it.

These are the things you need to work out before you do it. This is why you 3-bet with a smoother range, when you are against loose passive callers. And you 3-bet a more polorized range against the tight ones that fold.
 
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davidhoyle107

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If you are +EV against their 3-bet calling range, or if you get enough folds that you are +EV from 3-betting even when behind when they call. If they call with low pairs, trying to flop sets, they are "technically" calling with better hands, but you are +EV in this spot because you will get the pot almost every time they miss.

And, sometimes you will 3-bet simply because you are +EV heads up in position against the raiser, but you wouldn't be if you were playing it multi-way. Against a loose button, you might 3-bet om the CO hoping to see the flop heads up against the original raiser.

If your money comes from them folding too much pre-flop, and there are some nits that will open and fold to almost every reraise except with HUGE hands, then you should raise hands worse than AJs. For example, if someone opens 15% of the time, but folds everything but QQ+ and AK, you should reraise all day along (well not so much that they catch on). They are folding almost 90% of their opening range to 3-bets. When you get called (or more likely 4-bet) you're in horrible shape, but you'll win do much dead money that it won't matter that you lose the 3 bet sometimes.

The thing is, if you are folding to a 4-bet and know they are only continuing with monsters, then why waste AJs raising? It plays ok in position, so you're throwing that equity away when you 3-bet it.

These are the things you need to work out before you do it. This is why you 3-bet with a smoother range, when you are against loose passive callers. And you 3-bet a more polorized range against the tight ones that fold.
I'd imagine f3bet stats would be useful for figuring out specific fold equity for a player. If a loose player commonly folds to 3 bets, it's safe to assume if they call or 4 bet they've got something. Where as a tight player who calls 3 bets often may not and I might be able to re raise.
 
vinnie

vinnie

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I'd imagine f3bet stats would be useful for figuring out specific fold equity for a player. If a loose player commonly folds to 3 bets, it's safe to assume if they call or 4 bet they've got something. Where as a tight player who calls 3 bets often may not and I might be able to re raise.

Yes, but be aware of sample size. At the micros, it is very likely that you do not have a large enough sample to determine true percentages. But, most of the tighter players fit that mold pretty well. Actually, in the absence of extended history against a player, you should probably fit that mold. Yes, it is exploitable, but not enough players are strong enough to be exploiting you at the micros. When you get 3-bet, you should just fold everything you aren't 4-betting out of position.

It is more important to note who is calling 3 bets too much and too light. Most people who are calling 3-bets out of position probably fall into that category. If I see someone call a three bet out of position, I default to assuming they are calling too weak until/unless I am shown otherwise. Most players will play the 3-bet pots poorly. They play fit-or-fold poker. If they didn't get helped by the flop, they just fold and give up. That's pretty profitable. This is especially true at the micros, although some players might have a pretty wide idea of "helped" by the flop. Still, you should be c-betting almost 100% of the time. This is also exploitable, but the players at the micros aren't going to be playing well enough to exploit you when you do this.

Still, if you have players who call, you want to 3-bet with hands that will flop value hands in low SPR situations. That gives you some backup when they hit the flop or have better pre-flop. Against players that are tight and fold to 3-bets, you will 3-bet your premiums and hands that are just below the weakest hands you would call with.
 
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Adolf88

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You should never cold call to much. You are always in a passive situation.
But if you have a very strong hand like KK and AA and all players fold, and you have only 1 player on the table to see the flop you can callcold to change the dynamic and the image of your playing. Its particularly well if the most player are very tight and you have a loose image.
 
Diegol

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Maybe start 3beting with hands like AK AQ 1010 but not always, also try to not flat call in the small blind and the big blind, if you raise in those spots you will be showing a lot of strenght
 
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davidhoyle107

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Okay. I think I'm WAY to willing to commit to a pot. I call too much, but I also call post flop to much. I feel like maybe in a bit of a calling station.
 
Dorugremon

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Hey guys. I noticed my vpip is about 25 but my pfr is 17. I think I'm cold calling way to much. How often should I cold call vs 3 bet. All this is based off 6 max vs a 3 to 4 bb raise. I play 1/2c poker. Or a better question, in position, what type of hands should I cold call in position. I really only 3 bet with AA kk or qq. Maybe jj if I know they call with air.
Yeah, I'll say. Your PFR percentage should be within a few percent of your VPIP. You either have too much crap in your range and/or you're playing a very weak, passive game pre. If I know 50% of your range is garbage, I can play ATC against you for a profit.

You should take a good look at that range, get the trash out of it, and open with a raise, especially from the up front positions. Hands like (K,J) (K,T) (Q,J) look tempting, but these hands aren't as pretty as they look, especially out of the #1 hole. Ditch them rather than open limp. As your position improves, then you can consider playing them, and for an open raise.

You should also be open raising with hands that a lot of players limp, such as medium -- small pockets. Once you get to the CO and BTN, you should be steal raising a lot, especially if you know the blinds are tight and foldy. Also, don't go crazy here. 2XBB -- 2.5XBB is sufficient for steal raises. This also makes 1/2 pot c-bets less expensive as well.

That means you're going to have a very tight open range from the #1 and #2 holes, but there's nothing you can do about that: it's the nature of the game. The only thing you can do is to fire the occasional shot across the bow with some less than Premiums, like medium suited connectors, or even the occasional (J,2-o) but don't overdo it.

The problem with a range that has too much garbage in it is that there's no graceful way to dispose of the trash. That leaves you open to exploits post flop. You're folding to too many c-bets and that's a double whammy. Your opponents can exploit by c-betting, knowing you're likely to just give them the pot, and they won't pay your strong holdings when you take a stand, as they'll know what you have. Calling c-bets isn't a solution as you'll just be folding too many turns and rivers, and your opponents can exploit by double or triple barrelling.

As for 3-betting, let's first work on that opening range before you start worrying about that.
 
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rehanov

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dont try to achieve the best stats when u r playing 1-2c ,
actually cold calling is fne because smply they wont fold so there is no fold equity and u cant rly bluff them if they hit even the medium pair so position is not important to bluff when ur opponent show weakness but is rly important to get max value when u hit top pair+
 
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davidhoyle107

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Yeah, I'll say. Your PFR percentage should be within a few percent of your VPIP. You either have too much crap in your range and/or you're playing a very weak, passive game pre. If I know 50% of your range is garbage, I can play ATC against you for a profit.

You should take a good look at that range, get the trash out of it, and open with a raise, especially from the up front positions. Hands like (K,J) (K,T) (Q,J) look tempting, but these hands aren't as pretty as they look, especially out of the #1 hole. Ditch them rather than open limp. As your position improves, then you can consider playing them, and for an open raise.

You should also be open raising with hands that a lot of players limp, such as medium -- small pockets. Once you get to the CO and BTN, you should be steal raising a lot, especially if you know the blinds are tight and foldy. Also, don't go crazy here. 2XBB -- 2.5XBB is sufficient for steal raises. This also makes 1/2 pot c-bets less expensive as well.

That means you're going to have a very tight open range from the #1 and #2 holes, but there's nothing you can do about that: it's the nature of the game. The only thing you can do is to fire the occasional shot across the bow with some less than Premiums, like medium suited connectors, or even the occasional (J,2-o) but don't overdo it.

The problem with a range that has too much garbage in it is that there's no graceful way to dispose of the trash. That leaves you open to exploits post flop. You're folding to too many c-bets and that's a double whammy. Your opponents can exploit by c-betting, knowing you're likely to just give them the pot, and they won't pay your strong holdings when you take a stand, as they'll know what you have. Calling c-bets isn't a solution as you'll just be folding too many turns and rivers, and your opponents can exploit by double or triple barrelling.

As for 3-betting, let's first work on that opening range before you start worrying about that.
You are correct. I need to tighten up a lot, and really focus on open raising vs calling.
 
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davidhoyle107

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dont try to achieve the best stats when u r playing 1-2c ,
actually cold calling is fne because smply they wont fold so there is no fold equity and u cant rly bluff them if they hit even the medium pair so position is not important to bluff when ur opponent show weakness but is rly important to get max value when u hit top pair+

I was reading black rains micro stakes book, and he said the same thing the other guy did. Raise 15 percent of hands, and call 1-2 percent. That creates a vpip near your pre flop raise. If there is a wider range, you're calling too much.
 
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Calling wider in 2NL should be standard. Players stacking off with top pair top kicker or overpair means that any two cards makes profit it hero has skill edge. If hero has not then obviously being tight is good. Now I'm not saying one should play any two, but trying to get that low calling range is way too tight.

This doesn't apply to 3bet pots at all btw.
 
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rehanov

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when i play 1-2 cent i always make money and i play a little wider range than when i play 5-10 and 10-25 , and to be honest i dont rly remember last time i lost on 1-2 cent , yea i have a wider range but i play better than most of them past flop so i was ok , and i cold call alot , ofcouurse when i go higher in stakes i get more agressive
 
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Your question is so player dependent. A difference of maybe a maximum of 5 points between vpip and pfr seems about right, though.
 
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pariurisportive88

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in my opinion call is good .
 
John Turnner

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Very interesting and deep topic for discussion. I like the arguments of Negrian. I'm trying to simplify for myself as much as possible. If I have a monster hand, then I make a cold call, so that there is a lot of sweat. The average hands I make 3bet to protect them to isolate the aggressor.
 
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Tricky123bet

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Hey guys. I noticed my vpip is about 25 but my pfr is 17. I think I'm cold calling way to much. How often should I cold call vs 3 bet. All this is based off 6 max vs a 3 to 4 bb raise. I play 1/2c poker. Or a better question, in position, what type of hands should I cold call in position. I really only 3 bet with AA kk or qq. Maybe jj if I know they call with air.

It is a good question to ask, many seem to struggle with this part, myself included.
I've learnt so far though that folding is better in a lot of cases than cold caliing.
As dorugremon says hands like QJ and KT is hands that are cold called way too liberally, and will slowly lose you money. They are good enough to open in LP and sometimes in MP, but should just be folded if someone opens before you.
 
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trentb1234

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Ask yourself where your money comes from with your 3-bet. Don't just assume that you should 3-bet any decent hand. This is a complicated subject, and one where different spots need to be evaluated.

AJs on the BTN, let's say. If you 3-bet, why are you reraising? Is it to isolate a loose and weak player? One where you can expect to make a profit post-flop when they call too wide? Then go for it. But, is this a player who is tight and is just going to fold unless they have a great hand? In that case, don't 3-bet with AJs, call. If you raise, you're playing against the part of his range that has you crushed. Call and use position to your advantage.

Think about how the player will react pre-flop. Think about various flops and how you will treat them. What will you do when bet into, when check to, etc. Are you going to get a lot of folds from this player post-flop, so you don't need to hit the best hand? That makes a case for raising and building a bigger pot to steal. There is a lot to think about. But, don't 3-bet AJs just because you think your PFR is too low. Only 3-bet it because you can see that it makes you more money when you 3-bet.


Very solid info here. Every spot is different, as for the fundamentals of PF 3betting this about has it summed up. Idk what site you are playing on but if you have access to HUD use it! You can really break down the exactly what is going on from mathmatecial facts
Gl
 
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pietpikel

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Hey guys. I noticed my vpip is about 25 but my pfr is 17. I think I'm cold calling way to much. How often should I cold call vs 3 bet. All this is based off 6 max vs a 3 to 4 bb raise. I play 1/2c poker. Or a better question, in position, what type of hands should I cold call in position. I really only 3 bet with AA kk or qq. Maybe jj if I know they call with air.
You have to widen your range. A half decent player is making notes on you. Once in a while you have to do something that throws them for a loop. You can't just be 3 betting with AA KK QQ because they don't produce post flop action.

3 bet light in late position.
Invest some money and keep raising some fish every time he limps in.
Once in a while 3 bet late position with 67 of spades and perhaps hook a monster flop. Nobody puts you on it, and it is a cash cow, yet easy fold post flop to action.

Here is a pearl of advice. When you have a low pocket pair you want to be raising in late position. Ideally you want everyone to check to you. This gives you the opportunity to see 4 cards instead of just the flop. It increases your chance of finding a set significantly.

You need to be doing different things constantly, while keeping the core of your game very solid. Throw some bait in the water... how do people react ?
 
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davidhoyle107

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So, I've learned a lot since I posted this. Mainly that the tag style will not work in micro stakes. Micro stakes are weird. I've moved up, and have found that it's best to just raise first in. I'm cold calling a lot less. My vpip now is like 25 with a 20-22 pfr. My 3 betting range is very small. Normally I just fold out of position, or call strong hands. 3 betting I don't even do much. Most players will fold to 3 nets too often. I'd rather just call and slow roll. I like not showing strength post flop with strong hands.
 
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