Choosing NL games.

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Cstarker27

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So I need some help, and I'm stuck on what I should do? I would call myself a $1/2 NL player only because my bankroll cannot support me playing in $2/5 or $5/10 on a regular basis. My bank roll is $10k and I don't normally play higher than $1/2 as I have stuck to the "rule of thumb" of needing 20+ buy-in of a level if you plan to play it regularly. However, if you play poker in South Florida then you know just how bad most players are at this level. The players are more gamblers than players, and I have a hard time capitalizing off the "gamble" of 6 other players at the table. Makes in hard to win, and right now I take home a win about 50% of the time at $1/2. When I play $2/5 or (very rarely, and after a good run) $5/10 my results are typically much better as I win about 70% of the time. However my sample size isn't large enough for me to determine (or my bankroll large enough) weather I should continue at higher levels of play. I know it sounds stupid, but If your at a table where you and 1 other are the only good players, and you have 5-6 players that are donkeys, it makes it hard to win when your opponents don't really understand poker fundamentals. Should I move up? Even though my bankroll cannot sustain an extensive losing streak?
 
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davidhoyle107

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So I need some help, and I'm stuck on what I should do? I would call myself a $1/2 NL player only because my bankroll cannot support me playing in $2/5 or $5/10 on a regular basis. My bank roll is $10k and I don't normally play higher than $1/2 as I have stuck to the "rule of thumb" of needing 20+ buy-in of a level if you plan to play it regularly. However, if you play poker in South Florida then you know just how bad most players are at this level. The players are more gamblers than players, and I have a hard time capitalizing off the "gamble" of 6 other players at the table. Makes in hard to win, and right now I take home a win about 50% of the time at $1/2. When I play $2/5 or (very rarely, and after a good run) $5/10 my results are typically much better as I win about 70% of the time. However my sample size isn't large enough for me to determine (or my bankroll large enough) weather I should continue at higher levels of play. I know it sounds stupid, but If your at a table where you and 1 other are the only good players, and you have 5-6 players that are donkeys, it makes it hard to win when your opponents don't really understand poker fundamentals. Should I move up? Even though my bankroll cannot sustain an extensive losing streak?

Firstly, 10k is a LOT to lose. I'm no expert at 1/2, or can even say I've played with that much money at any point in my life. But I know your pain of players sucking since I play micro stakes. If you have a skill edge, it's generally better to start being more exploitative. I would really think about how much 10k is worth to you. Like you said, it could all be gone during a bad swing. For that much cash, id even say 20 but ins might be liberal. I'd just hate to get tilted one day.
 
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If you're playing for the enjoyment of the game-Move up.
If you're playing for the money-Move up.
If you're playing to ensure pure frustration-Stay where you are.
 
Stuey

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When you choose a game look for the following signs

If some opponents raises infrequently and mostly with strong hands, this is a “get out of the way” situation. When the same players limp in, you attack with bets and raises, because the limping hands are weak, and the ones they play too often. In other words, by separating raising hands from limping hands, your opponent is giving you reliable cues about when to attack and when to back off. Observing and heeding these cues is the bedrock of winning in 1/2, 1/3 and 2/5 no-limit Hold ’em.

When you are in position and see some players sometime limp and sometime raise coming in the pot,.. well,.. if they limp you always raise and if they raise you fold if your hand cannot compete with their narrow raising range.

If you do this all day you'll be making money consistently. That's the way to choose your game.
 
Vilgeoforc

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If you're playing in plus 2/5$, then what is the point to play 1/2$. 5/10 $ a risky game for your bankroll, but 2/5$ you ideal, though lots of fish. If you won't spend the winnings, then gradually you will reach the amount of 50 buy-ins, but you'll decide what to do next.
 
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I believe that you need to play at the limit, on which you feel comfortable. Periodic play on higher limits is a very useful thing that will improve your game. And the main thing - do not play too expensive for yourself limits, where you will play with caution and will not be able to make meaningful decisions.
 
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Cstarker27

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I believe that you need to play at the limit, on which you feel comfortable. Periodic play on higher limits is a very useful thing that will improve your game. And the main thing - do not play too expensive for yourself limits, where you will play with caution and will not be able to make meaningful decisions.



Alfa,
I don't know how to describe it other than saying, it's not that I feel uncomfortable playing in the $2/5 or $5/10. I do NOT feel as though I adjust my game to be more of a "nit" just because of the stakes I am playing. In fact I would prefer to play in the larger games. I'm just not sure if a $10k bankroll is big enough to try and play higher stakes regularly, and I was hoping someone who plays these games regularly could give some insight to my bankroll size, and how many buy-ins I should have to play higher stakes regularly. What kind of "swings" to expect, etc.
 
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TheBull953

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20+ buy-in is certainly optimal, especially if you don't have side inco.e to replenish your bankroll should the worst case scenario happen. Variance is a nasty bitch and even very good players can feel it's wrath. It's not unlikely that sometime in your career that you go on a 10 buy-in downswing. Would you move down stakes if this were to happen?

Some other things to consider. The greater your skill edge over other players, the lower the buy ins requirement. It's good to take shots at 2/5 5/10 when the games are really good (game selection also reduces variance). Best of luck in your poker journey! Also, don't forget to keep detailed logs.
 
Beanfacekilla

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So I need some help, and I'm stuck on what I should do? I would call myself a $1/2 NL player only because my bankroll cannot support me playing in $2/5 or $5/10 on a regular basis. My bank roll is $10k and I don't normally play higher than $1/2 as I have stuck to the "rule of thumb" of needing 20+ buy-in of a level if you plan to play it regularly. However, if you play poker in South Florida then you know just how bad most players are at this level. The players are more gamblers than players, and I have a hard time capitalizing off the "gamble" of 6 other players at the table. Makes in hard to win, and right now I take home a win about 50% of the time at $1/2. When I play $2/5 or (very rarely, and after a good run) $5/10 my results are typically much better as I win about 70% of the time. However my sample size isn't large enough for me to determine (or my bankroll large enough) weather I should continue at higher levels of play. I know it sounds stupid, but If your at a table where you and 1 other are the only good players, and you have 5-6 players that are donkeys, it makes it hard to win when your opponents don't really understand poker fundamentals. Should I move up? Even though my bankroll cannot sustain an extensive losing streak?

The players at 1/2 have no idea what they are doing. They are easy to beat. But, you must learn some important lessons along the way. If you are unable to beat 1/2, I think you will have even more problems at higher stakes (given a bigger sample).


I would recommend reading "The course" by Ed Miller. Read "The Mental Game of Poker" by Jared Tendler also. Jonathan Little live poker books.


Also, if all pots are going multiway, raise bigger pre. If it takes $20 to get it HU or 3w, then raise to $20. Raise $22, $25. Find the sweet spot. Always play full stack.

Don't pay people off when they raise and get aggro postflop, unless you can beat 2p+.



Very vague cookie cutter stuff here. Just some quick thoughts.



You kinda make it sound like a bad thing that you are sitting with people who have no poker fundamentals. This is great! These people are literally giving money away, if you play your cards right.

I think probably the most important thing at 1/2 is making laydowns. We just can't pay these people off. Most are so passive, they like hardly ever raise with less than 2p. They are incredibly easy to read.


I would also recommend looking through other threads in the cash game section. There are many resources around here, where people are talking about hands, analyzing them, etc.



Just keep studying. Post hands you play at live tables for review in hand analysis section. Take notes at the table with your smart phone if you have to, there are Apps to take notes.


Here is how I take notes. I did this for nearly a year.


2/5 NLHE

8. HJ ($491) Kc-Qs. Folds to us. We have nitty image. We raise to $20. Only BTN calls. Flop Ks-Js-4d. We bet $30, calls. Turn 8h. We bet $75, calls. River 4s. We check (he just hit a flush), he bets $200, we snap fold. (-$125)




There is so much money to be made at 1/2 man. I have thousands of hours at 1/2 tables. EZ money dude. And the more we learn, the better we get.


Post some hands man. That would probably be first step. Read books. Repeat.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Alfa,
I don't know how to describe it other than saying, it's not that I feel uncomfortable playing in the $2/5 or $5/10. I do NOT feel as though I adjust my game to be more of a "nit" just because of the stakes I am playing. In fact I would prefer to play in the larger games. I'm just not sure if a $10k bankroll is big enough to try and play higher stakes regularly, and I was hoping someone who plays these games regularly could give some insight to my bankroll size, and how many buy-ins I should have to play higher stakes regularly. What kind of "swings" to expect, etc.

I've played a fair amount of 2/5, maybe 600-700 hours in last year. I don't know exactly, and I dont feel like looking right now.

The worst downswing I've encountered was probably $5k-$6k. But severity of downswings is dependant on alot of things.

When people downswing, they often play bad, and it opens the flood gates man. So, that can actually make the downswing last longer, and be more severe.

People playing LAG and 35%+ hands pre should expect much bigger swings also. Playing nitty ABC probably lowest variance, least amount of swings, but you also don't have huge wins probably playing ABC.


So yeah, I guess it depends? Your skill level is a huge factor.


Is poker your sole source if income? If so, you need like 6 months living expenses set aside, and a poker bankroll separate from the life roll.


So, if you only have $10k to your name, and poker is your sole source of income, I would only shot take occasionally, when games are good.


If you have $10k + living expenses for 6 months, I think you could shot take more.




But TBH, the fact that you say it's tough to beat the fish at 1/2 makes me think you are probably not at the level to play 2/5 and 5/10 yet anyways. No disrespect intended. Just my tthoughts.
 
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Cstarker27

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Well I appreciate the insight, but I’m going to step up to the $2/5 on a more regular basis, and will let you know what my results look like. I do think that there is a “sweet spot” as to the number of bad players you want in a game, and at the $1/2 level I think that the number of bad players in a game can really make the game hard to beat. I will keep it posted with my results. My current bankroll as of this post is now $12k.
 
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Cstarker27

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Well I appreciate the insight, but I’m going to step up to the $2/5 on a more regular basis, and will let you know what my results look like. I do think that there is a “sweet spot” as to the number of bad players you want in a game, and at the $1/2 level I think that the number of bad players in a game can really make the game hard to beat. I will keep it posted with my results. My current bankroll as of this post is now $12k.



So I haven’t posted anything in the past two months, but this is what I have seen playing poker in South Florida. Since I have moved up to $2/5 and playing some $5/10(just once or twice a month), my bankroll has more than doubled.... I’m currently sitting just over $27k. Run good is a bit of a factor in this number, but the biggest difference I have seen between $1/2 and higher limit games is that players have the basics fundamentals of the Game understood. Which means they “know when to hold’em and know when to fold’em”. This allows for the mental part of the game(or leveling) become a bigger factor. So with that being said, more of my bluffs are able to make it through, and it has allowed me the ability to open up my game and be a bit more LAG in different spots. There are still quite a few fish, but nothing like the $1/2 games. Sitting 9 handed, 3-4 of them would be fishy instead of 6-7 at a $1/2 game, and that for me makes all the difference. Too many bad players in a game IS NOT a good thing.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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So I haven’t posted anything in the past two months, but this is what I have seen playing poker in South Florida. Since I have moved up to $2/5 and playing some $5/10(just once or twice a month), my bankroll has more than doubled.... I’m currently sitting just over $27k. Run good is a bit of a factor in this number, but the biggest difference I have seen between $1/2 and higher limit games is that players have the basics fundamentals of the Game understood. Which means they “know when to hold’em and know when to fold’em”. This allows for the mental part of the game(or leveling) become a bigger factor. So with that being said, more of my bluffs are able to make it through, and it has allowed me the ability to open up my game and be a bit more LAG in different spots. There are still quite a few fish, but nothing like the $1/2 games. Sitting 9 handed, 3-4 of them would be fishy instead of 6-7 at a $1/2 game, and that for me makes all the difference. Too many bad players in a game IS NOT a good thing.

I'm glad to see you're enjoying a nice run at 2/5 man. Keep it going!
 
Aaron Soto

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well said. **** 1/2 NL.

I haven't been able to beat that game in years. Suddenly i jump on 1/3 everything changes.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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well said. **** 1/2 NL.

I haven't been able to beat that game in years. Suddenly i jump on 1/3 everything changes.

Dude, 1/2 is so easy to beat in the long term, it should be illegal. I can maintain a higher hourly at 1/2 than I have been able to at 2/5. The players are so bad they literally just airmail chips, assuming your hand holds.




Most people who are grinders, that move up to 2/5 eventually go busto, when variance hits, and they run bad. The flood gates open, and they play bad in downswing, and lose roll.


Some succeed, but many fail. If you can't destroy 1/2 over a large sample, I honestly don't believe you would be able to beat 2/5 over a large sample (you just meaning anyone, not you in particular Aaron).
 
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Cstarker27

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Dude, 1/2 is so easy to beat in the long term, it should be illegal. I can maintain a higher hourly at 1/2 than I have been able to at 2/5. The players are so bad they literally just airmail chips, assuming your hand holds.




Most people who are grinders, that move up to 2/5 eventually go busto, when variance hits, and they run bad. The flood gates open, and they play bad in downswing, and lose roll.


Some succeed, but many fail. If you can't destroy 1/2 over a large sample, I honestly don't believe you would be able to beat 2/5 over a large sample (you just meaning anyone, not you in particular Aaron).



I think a lot of it as well depends on what part of the country you play as well. When I lived in Reno, NV the games were much easier to beat same with Vegas. Out there more player know the fundamentals. Here in South Florida my experience has been much different. Down here you are constantly going 4-5 way and you know at least three of the players are “floating” looking for a “gutter ball” are some other ridiculous card card to hit the board. But that’s just my experience. I seem to fair better at $2/5. For those of you who are crushing the $1/2 $1/3 games congrats to you! It’s just not a game I see profitable long run.
 
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