Checking Blind

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protoskull

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You know the situation. You're first to act after the flop and you decide as the dealer is burning to check blind and let the other guy decide first.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this. When (if ever) is it a good strategy? What's the point of it? Have you ever used it to your advantage? Had it used against you to good effect? Used it in a situation different than the one I outlined above?

I look forward to your replies.
 
TheJace

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Could you rephrase the question please? I'm confused.
 
Effexor

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TheJace said:
Could you rephrase the question please? I'm confused.
Click to expand...

If you say out loud "Check" before the turn card is dealt, this is called "checking in the dark".

When is this is a good strat?
 
KMC1828

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Effexor said:
If you say out loud "Check" before the turn card is dealt, this is called "checking in the dark".

When is this is a good strat?
Click to expand...

i would check in the dark if im slow playing a big hand i got on the flop (nut straight, top trips -no flush draws or straight draws-, etc)

but i dont play live enough to use it anyway. so
 
OzExorcist

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I'm racking my brains for a situation where I think it'd be a really good idea... but in the meantime, another question came up:

Is a check before the card is dealt actually binding? Does the casino and the other player actually have to honour it, or is the other player entitled to say "I'm not giving up position - call your action now that you've seen the card."

I've seen the likes of Daniel Negranu do it on occasion, so I'm guessing it's a legitimate play, but the question still came to mind.
 
Flops'm&Bets'm

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Checking in the Dark is usually an accepted play when, there is one player that is Pot-Committed on an All-In, and 2 other players are in on the action with the hands they have, so the say to each other check in the dark?? and agree to see it down. To perhaps beat out the one that may get bumped out of a Tournament, rather than isolate the play and end up losing the pot and causing the guy that folded to have won and taking the All-In Player out.

I have seen this in WPT events, on TV, at Binions (Downtown Chad Brown - host)
But I have seen where the isolation play let someone back in. The Aussie Millions 2007, I believe. Jimmy Fricke (luck bag) Bet into a Pot with 3- players in the action (Andrew Black, I believe was the player he got to fold), Isolated the All-In Player on the flop and lost to a better hand, where the Best hand folded due to chip Lead agression. I believe it was K-7d suited and would have won the pot and knocked out the All-In..(either trips 7's or the flush)

So, whats better in this instance..Play the All-in 3 handed to 'knock-out' an opponent in a Tournament..or double him up out of greed??
Double-edged sword...

Checking in the Dark Pre-Flop is only binding when it is agreed upon...means no looking at your cards.
This usually happens when it has been folded around to the small blind that limps in. Or by saying you can bet whatever on your hand, and I will call in the dark as long as we check it down, to the river.
This usually happens when the 'blind call' player has a Huge stack vs. a crippled stack, and a mercy 'let luck decide' play..The Pro's do this in a 'Confidence' move to give a 'Loose' impression. Like in Daniel Negreanu..will say "OK, Let's Gamble"...and Mike Matisow (for what ever reason) does this often..like thats gonna help his game any??
 
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titans4ever

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OzExorcist said:
I'm racking my brains for a situation where I think it'd be a really good idea... but in the meantime, another question came up:
Battle of the blinds is a good one. SB just completes the bet and BB checks. Checking in the dark can give them no info preflop and on the flop. They will have to do something or give a free card and have no idea what you have.

Family pots, raised or unraised, and first to act. Your check in the dark allows you to see what the others want to do before you "really" declare any action after seeing the flop. This hides for the moment what you want to do when there could be lots of action behind you.


Is a check before the card is dealt actually binding?
Live, the three cards are placed in front of the dealer one on top the other and then all three are flipped over and spread out. You are allowed to say it at any point during these motions and it is binding.
Does the casino and the other player actually have to honour it, or is the other player entitled to say "I'm not giving up position - call your action now that you've seen the card." You just look at them and say "check". Not awhole lot different. They still have position by acting after you.


You are basically gambling away that opportunity to bet. You do risk losing some money on hands because you are basically allowing your opponent a free card at will if heads up.
I've seen the likes of Daniel Negranu do it on occasion, so I'm guessing it's a legitimate play, but the question still came to mind.
Click to expand...

Hope this helps.
 
TheJace

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Glad I revived this thread before it died, pretty interesting replies.
 
OzExorcist

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titans4ever said:
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Does rather, thanks. This 'is it binding' situation I actually had in my head was more along the lines of someone saying "check" after the flop betting has been completed, but before a card has been burned for the turn. Is it binding then?
 
titans4ever

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I don't think it written exactly when your verbal actions are binding. When I teach dealers I say that anything said from when you start to burn on can be considered binding.

Like most things in poker rules, the intent and what is best for the game comes first. If a dealer hears him say check but the player is not looking at them or it doesn't seem right for the spot, they are taught to ask to make sure. He/she said it but we want to make sure it is right.
 
titans4ever

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Flops'm&Bets'm said:
Checking in the Dark is usually an accepted play when, there is one player that is Pot-Committed on an All-In, and 2 other players are in on the action with the hands they have, so the say to each other check in the dark?? and agree to see it down. To perhaps beat out the one that may get bumped out of a Tournament, rather than isolate the play and end up losing the pot and causing the guy that folded to have won and taking the All-In Player out.

I have seen this in WPT events, on TV, at Binions (Downtown Chad Brown - host)
But I have seen where the isolation play let someone back in. The Aussie Millions 2007, I believe. Jimmy Fricke (luck bag) Bet into a Pot with 3- players in the action (Andrew Black, I believe was the player he got to fold), Isolated the All-In Player on the flop and lost to a better hand, where the Best hand folded due to chip Lead agression. I believe it was K-7d suited and would have won the pot and knocked out the All-In..(either trips 7's or the flush)

So, whats better in this instance..Play the All-in 3 handed to 'knock-out' an opponent in a Tournament..or double him up out of greed??
Double-edged sword...

Checking in the Dark Pre-Flop is only binding when it is agreed upon...means no looking at your cards.
This usually happens when it has been folded around to the small blind that limps in. Or by saying you can bet whatever on your hand, and I will call in the dark as long as we check it down, to the river.
This usually happens when the 'blind call' player has a Huge stack vs. a crippled stack, and a mercy 'let luck decide' play..The Pro's do this in a 'Confidence' move to give a 'Loose' impression. Like in Daniel Negreanu..will say "OK, Let's Gamble"...and Mike Matisow (for what ever reason) does this often..like thats gonna help his game any??
Click to expand...

You have "checking it down" and "check in the dark" mixed up.

checking it down - used when you have an all-in player and you and any other player(s) still with chips silently agree (if you say anything then that can be considered collusion and risk giving you a penalty: whatever the tournament has set up from 10-15 sitting out to surrendering this hand) to check all the way to the showdown in hopes of knocking out an opponent to move up the ladder in a tournament. This is most commonly used once in the money. Allows both players to see all 5 cards as cheap as possible in hopes of knocking the all-in out.

check in the dark - a live game move when a player that is first to act in the next round says "check" before he/she actually sees the card(s) turned over. Used to try to hide strenght by relinquishing rights to act before phyically seeing the next card.

The last part about calling any riase in the dark but check it down after that can work when heads up because you have nobody else to collude with so you and another player can agree to do something like that. PS - any agreement like that is not binding and the big stack can still be a jerk and push or do what ever they want each round so buyer be ware.
 
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aliengenius

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Any action "in turn" is binding. Since the person is first to act (you can't check in the dark if you are on the button and no one has already done it in front of you, for example) any verbal declarations are binding. That's why after the first person checks in the dark, the second person can bet in the dark (or check in the dark as well), since it is now their turn to act.

As to strategy, you can think of it as a tricky way to try to gain position (be last to act). Of course the downside is that you may have wanted to bet for some reason (to defend your hand against draws, etc.), but have abdicated that privilege.
 
Flops'm&Bets'm

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Thanks T4E I realize that the distinction is as such. How you explained it makes it clear and concise. My post was not meant to portray mis-guided info.
I should have clarified 'checking it down'. And unsaid is right, Another Critical Point.! In Tournament Play ITM, it makes the most sense.

Thanks again for the clarification. Warranted!

The Checking in the Dark is a 'Profile' Professional Play anyhow.
Using 'fancy' out of the 'attic' poker plays like calling a 'muggins' in Cribbage...LOL

Thanks again for the clarification. Warranted!
~15 min. Penalty for me..".....waitress!!"~
 
D

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Re: Checking in the Dark

For me, I use checking in the dark in various situations. You can't really do this online as is usually understood but when I do play online, the sites I play on (PokerRoom, UB currently) have boxes to check where you automatically check once cards are put out. This gives the appearance that you are essentially checking in the dark.

Besides that, when I'm in a live game and I'm in the small blind and call pre-flop, I sometimes check in the dark and actually say "check in the dark". It may be a little obvious, but I like to let the table know that I could have anything. Mind you I do this either when I'm holding AA, suited connectors or complete junk. You never know if you're gonna hit the flop huge or not and you're coming in at a discount anyways....just hoping the Big blind doesn't put a raise behind you.

If I do hit the flop or am under no immediate threat (incl. uncoordinated flop with no pairs that may hurt my bullets) the check-in-the-dark gives no information on my hand. I can easily get away from it if I completely miss or put in a raise if I want to isolate and/or build the pot.

Another situation is if for example I flop my straight in early position and there's no chance of a flush, even on the turn, so I just check normally around and wait for someone to bet in. I would just smooth call and then check-in-the-dark for the turn card and then pop a raise if he/she bets out again.

Not sure if players agree with this (especially slow-playing AA), but I sometimes pull this out just to show I have this club in the bag...
 
aliengenius

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Flops'm&Bets'm said:
Thanks T4E I realize that the distinction is as such. How you explained it makes it clear and concise. My post was not meant to portray mis-guided info.
I should have clarified 'checking it down'. And unsaid is right, Another Critical Point.! In Tournament Play ITM, it makes the most sense.

Thanks again for the clarification. Warranted!

The Checking in the Dark is a 'Profile' Professional Play anyhow.
Using 'fancy' out of the 'attic' poker plays like calling a 'muggins' in Cribbage...LOL

Thanks again for the clarification. Warranted!
~15 min. Penalty for me..".....waitress!!"~
Click to expand...

A lot of times people checking it down will do so in the dark, however!
 
daxter70

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CHECK in the dark...used to perfection by david williams in 04 ME vs josh arieh.

i use this strategy in the sb when there is one maybe two limpers...holding midsmalls or smalls..or A rag, so as to see how players in the pot react to the flop and go from there..or flop a set with the smalls to trap...:cool:
 
KingCurtis

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i never have checked to make the other person think or act first it has happened to me but never at home games and ofcourse not online but at casinos mainly there there is always some guy checking before the flop comes ???? lol
 
vanquish

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AK OOP heads-up in a growing pot? PF?
Haven't read thread besides OP sry.
 
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aliengenius said:
Any action "in turn" is binding. Since the person is first to act (you can't check in the dark if you are on the button and no one has already done it in front of you, for example) any verbal declarations are binding. That's why after the first person checks in the dark, the second person can bet in the dark (or check in the dark as well), since it is now their turn to act.
Click to expand...
I've seen people bet out of turn and have that be binding. In televised games I've seen one player announce check or bet before the cards were dealt, so before they were "in turn" and that was accepted. So I don't think that it depends on it being your turn. Otherwise, you could get a free read by starting to raise out of turn and seeing the reactions of others before having to actually commit.
 
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