Checking back more on rivers where villain just calls along but no big draws complete

quick · Apr 26, 2018

So this is a spot I find myself in quite often at full ring games. We'll get something like AQs on the button, checks around to us , we raise, get called, go to flop. Board gives us a Q with top kicker, some draws possible based on board. Checks to us, we bet, villain calls. Turn seems like a blank, we bet, villain calls, river comes, no big draws appear to have made it, we make small value bet...villian either calls or re-raises or donk shoves:

We turn over TPTK on this board, they turn over an overpair or a crappy two pair (like Q7 or something).

I'm often left scratching my head here esp on scary boards because villain is playing these hands super passive and, I assume, with little understanding of draws and odds. On a board with 2 of the same suit on a flop and esp if it also is connected/coordinated, I'm not giving a free card or calling a small bet with a strong overpair or 2 pair, I'm raising.

I'm thinking maybe I should be checking back rivers here more when last to act? I feel like the villains in these spots are thinking "I have a big pair" or "I have two pair" and "is best hand!" whereas I'm thinking, they're just smooth calling me, they're obviously on a draw...then they beat me with a hand that could be vulnerable to being outdrawn by many possibilities but they just passively call me down to river.

Obviously on rainbow flops and uncoordinated flops I'm likely to check back or put smaller feeler bets out in these spots and fold to big donk raises, but when it seems like a draw heavy flop, I just bet like I've got the best of it and they're on a draw if they're just calling along.

FailX21 · Apr 26, 2018

I think in that spot you have to think about "With what would my opponent call me ?". It's the kind of situation where you know that most of the time, villain would only call with better, and is probably not folding with better. And if villain has a worst hand, he will fold, so you don't gain any value from betting the river, so yeah I would check back too in that position.

So basically if you bet, you are likely to only be called by better and to never make people with better hand fold, so you should check back. Betting in that situation is taking a big risk, you have to remember that you "only" have top pair.

Would you agree with that thinking in this spot ?

Dani_California · Apr 26, 2018

FailX21 said:
So basically if you bet, you are likely to only be called by better and to never make people with better hand fold, so you should check back. Betting in that situation is taking a big risk, you have to remember that you "only" have top pair.

I agree with this 100%. Checking is the right choice in this situation. You only have one pair and your opponent has been calling your raises so far so probably he too is having something. He could of course have a missed draw or worse pair sometimes but why risk it? You most likely won't win any more than you would with just checking. Plus, you don't want to give your opponent one more chance to bluff against you by reraising. That just puts you in a very tough spot and that's something you don't want to get into when you are holding only one pair. I know the feeling when you don't want to believe that your opponent could have something better but you have to remember that it's your own mind that is trying to convince you to raise. Sometimes the best play is the safe check.

smallfrie · Apr 26, 2018

Johnathan Little discusses this in one of his books (don't remember which one). You should try to make this situation player specific if you can. If you observe or have data that this player makes loose calls with mediocrlue bet isthen a value bet is in order and if you observe or have data the player is tight/solid you should probably be checking back more because your probably getting called by better.

Edit: Found the Johnathan Little book, It is; "Strategies for Beating Small Stakes Poker Tournaments"... And just by chance on Audible.com if you search for the book there is a free 4 minute something example of what is in the book and once it runs down to the 2 minute mark he discusses this very situation. So you can listen to his answer to your question about checking back or not totally free.

quick · Apr 26, 2018

FailX21 said:
I think in that spot you have to think about "With what would my opponent call me ?". It's the kind of situation where you know that most of the time, villain would only call with better, and is probably not folding with better. And if villain has a worst hand, he will fold, so you don't gain any value from betting the river, so yeah I would check back too in that position.

So basically if you bet, you are likely to only be called by better and to never make people with better hand fold, so you should check back. Betting in that situation is taking a big risk, you have to remember that you "only" have top pair.

Would you agree with that thinking in this spot ?

Good point. I think this reinforces my thought process of checking back these rivers more...but sometimes I'm concerned about leaving value on the table when we check/check and they show a small pair lol.

Dani_California said:
I agree with this 100%. Checking is the right choice in this situation. You only have one pair and your opponent has been calling your raises so far so probably he too is having something. He could of course have a missed draw or worse pair sometimes but why risk it? You most likely won't win any more than you would with just checking. Plus, you don't want to give your opponent one more chance to bluff against you by reraising. That just puts you in a very tough spot and that's something you don't want to get into when you are holding only one pair. I know the feeling when you don't want to believe that your opponent could have something better but you have to remember that it's your own mind that is trying to convince you to raise. Sometimes the best play is the safe check.

I agree, my comment above applies to your feedback as well too. It's tough sometimes to wonder if you're leaving value out there when you see so often these players will show up with a weaker pair!. I appreciate your comment on the bluffing/raising aspect of villain as well, sometimes we smack ourselves when we make a small river bet here and then get re-popped or even shoved on...I've had players do this, I muck, then they show their missed draw 10 high card lol.

smallfrie said:
Johnathan Little discusses this in one of his books (don't remember which one). You should try to make this situation player specific if you can. If you observe or have data that this player makes loose calls with mediocrlue bet isthen a value bet is in order and if you observe or have data the player is tight/solid you should probably be checking back more because your probably getting called by better.

Edit: Found the Johnathan Little book, It is; "Strategies for Beating Small Stakes Poker Tournaments"... And just by chance on Audible.com if you search for the book there is a free 4 minute something example of what is in the book and once it runs down to the 2 minute mark he discusses this very situation. So you can listen to his answer to your question about checking back or not totally free.

Thanks for this, will def check it out. To clarify I mostly play cash games so not sure if the Little book tips apply to only tournaments?

This is on Bovada so stats only last as long as person is seated at a table so hard to tell. I think what gets confusing is when they passively play these "better hands" and seem to have no interest during the flop or turn in either building the pot for themselves esp if I'm betting first or giving poor odds for me to continue if they think I'm drawing.

smallfrie · Apr 26, 2018

smallfrie said:
Johnathan Little discusses this in one of his books (don't remember which one). You should try to make this situation player specific if you can. If you observe or have data that this player makes loose calls with mediocrlue bet isthen a value bet is in order and if you observe or have data the player is tight/solid you should probably be checking back more because your probably getting called by better.

This should have said "Johnathan Little discusses this in one of his books (don't remember which one). You should try to make this situation player specific if you can. If you observe or have data that this player makes loose calls with mediocre hands then a value bet is in order and if you observe or have data the player is tight/solid you should probably be checking back more because your probably getting called by better.

I don't know where that "mediocrlue bet isthen" came from in my original post came from

quick said:
Thanks for this, will def check it out. To clarify I mostly play cash games so not sure if the Little book tips apply to only tournaments?

This is on Bovada so stats only last as long as person is seated at a table so hard to tell. I think what gets confusing is when they passively play these "better hands" and seem to have no interest during the flop or turn in either building the pot for themselves esp if I'm betting first or giving poor odds for me to continue if they think I'm drawing.

I think even though the book is about tournaments, the advice he gives about this particular situation definitely applies to cash games as well. And depending on how long your sessions are I think you should be able to spot the different player types after a while of sitting at one table with no previous data and start to apply the appropriate check back or value bet based on the player.

braveslice · Apr 26, 2018

Bet/call and bet/fold are totally different lines. I would guess bet/call is rarely the correct play OTR with tp. Also shove is not something you call usually with top pair.

Dani_California · Apr 27, 2018

quick said:
I agree, my comment above applies to your feedback as well too. It's tough sometimes to wonder if you're leaving value out there when you see so often these players will show up with a weaker pair!. I appreciate your comment on the bluffing/raising aspect of villain as well, sometimes we smack ourselves when we make a small river bet here and then get re-popped or even shoved on...I've had players do this, I muck, then they show their missed draw 10 high card lol.

It took me a long time to realize that one pair, no matter how strong, is usually just not good enough when your opponent calls on every street. That's why I don't even see that as a value bet anymore. There are and there will be situations when your pair would've been the best hand but that's not the end of the world if you lose some value every now and then. You still win a nice pot and like I said before, you exclude the chance for your opponent to bluff against you.

Remember that many times you are also saving some money by checking when your opponent does have a better hand that he would've called with. If you have been raising on every street so far, your opponent might also trust that you will raise on river as well and they are just waiting for their opportunity to set you a nice trap and check-raise with a monster. That's why I'd much rather be safe than sorry and reach to the check button

quick · Apr 27, 2018

braveslice said:
Bet/call and bet/fold are totally different lines. I would guess bet/call is rarely the correct play OTR with tp. Also shove is not something you call usually with top pair.

I guess as they say, "it depends." I agree shoves are probably not long term good calls in these spots although it's interesting how much I've seen LAG villains shove their missed draws and show when we fold to them. So on boards like I referenced above, its not unforeseeable for villains to bluff rivers so it's tricky.

Dani_California said:
It took me a long time to realize that one pair, no matter how strong, is usually just not good enough when your opponent calls on every street. That's why I don't even see that as a value bet anymore. There are and there will be situations when your pair would've been the best hand but that's not the end of the world if you lose some value every now and then. You still win a nice pot and like I said before, you exclude the chance for your opponent to bluff against you.

Remember that many times you are also saving some money by checking when your opponent does have a better hand that he would've called with. If you have been raising on every street so far, your opponent might also trust that you will raise on river as well and they are just waiting for their opportunity to set you a nice trap and check-raise with a monster. That's why I'd much rather be safe than sorry and reach to the check button

Yeah a pair generally is "just a pair" and beaten on many rivers. It makes it so fascinating for this game though with contextual situations and depth of variety in opponents because sometimes a pair is the best hand come the river...

At the same time I get what you're saying, obviously usually if a draw misses they aren't calling our river bet anyways so a check/check gets us the same value (which I have to get better with )...but what trips me up is I expect that if someone flops 2 pair or something on a very wet board, they're going to be raising my flop bet not just "calling" as you'd want to not give away cheap or free cards...

I'm not getting beat here by monsters or even sets most of the time, it's usually someone calling a pre flop bet with 10s8s and the flop comes 10dAd8c, turn will be like 2c, river like 4h and they just flat call me down.... So is it really a villain calling looking for fat value and hoping to check raise me on river with their "monster" that is hardly a monster and is thinking "what does quick have and what does quick think I have AND what does quick think I think quick has" and thus, as you say is calling me down realizing I have a big pair defending against a draw..... or is it just a fish who goes "i have 2 pair, I have monster."

My issue is I get tripped up trying to figure out if they're competently doing as you say or on wet boards like I described, just completely clueless about board textures and don't realize they should raise on wet boards to not give away cheap draws.

quick · Apr 27, 2018

braveslice said:
Bet/call and bet/fold are totally different lines. I would guess bet/call is rarely the correct play OTR with tp. Also shove is not something you call usually with top pair.

I guess as they say, "it depends." I agree shoves are probably not long term good calls in these spots although it's interesting how much I've seen LAG villains shove their missed draws and show when we fold to them. So on boards like I referenced above, its not unforeseeable for villains to bluff rivers so it's tricky.

Dani_California said:
It took me a long time to realize that one pair, no matter how strong, is usually just not good enough when your opponent calls on every street. That's why I don't even see that as a value bet anymore. There are and there will be situations when your pair would've been the best hand but that's not the end of the world if you lose some value every now and then. You still win a nice pot and like I said before, you exclude the chance for your opponent to bluff against you.

Remember that many times you are also saving some money by checking when your opponent does have a better hand that he would've called with. If you have been raising on every street so far, your opponent might also trust that you will raise on river as well and they are just waiting for their opportunity to set you a nice trap and check-raise with a monster. That's why I'd much rather be safe than sorry and reach to the check button

Yeah a pair generally is "just a pair" and beaten on many rivers. It makes it so fascinating for this game though with contextual situations and depth of variety in opponents because sometimes a pair is the best hand come the river...

At the same time I get what you're saying, obviously usually if a draw misses they aren't calling our river bet anyways so a check/check gets us the same value (which I have to get better with )...but what trips me up is I expect that if someone flops 2 pair or something on a very wet board, they're going to be raising my flop bet not just "calling" as you'd want to not give away cheap or free cards...

I'm not getting beat here by monsters or even sets most of the time, it's usually someone calling a pre flop bet with 10s8s and the flop comes 10dAd8c, turn will be like 2c, river like 4h and they just flat call me down.... So is it really a villain calling looking for fat value and hoping to check raise me on river with their "monster" that is hardly a monster and is thinking "what does quick have and what does quick think I have AND what does quick think I think quick has" and thus, as you say is calling me down realizing I have a big pair defending against a draw..... or is it just a fish who goes "i have 2 pair, I have monster."

My issue is I get tripped up trying to figure out if they're competently doing as you say or on wet boards like I described, just completely clueless about board textures and don't realize they should raise on wet boards to not give away cheap draws.

Dani_California · Apr 27, 2018

quick said:
Yeah a pair generally is "just a pair" and beaten on many rivers. It makes it so fascinating for this game though with contextual situations and depth of variety in opponents because sometimes a pair is the best hand come the river...

Yeah, you are right that sometimes it is indeed the best hand and like you said, it depends on your opponent as well. Top pair, especially aces, is a hand that gets you quite easily carried away if you are not careful. However, the pot gets big if there is a raise and call on every street so that's why I never feel too thrilled on river if I have nothing but that one pair in that situation.

quick said:
At the same time I get what you're saying, obviously usually if a draw misses they aren't calling our river bet anyways so a check/check gets us the same value (which I have to get better with )...but what trips me up is I expect that if someone flops 2 pair or something on a very wet board, they're going to be raising my flop bet not just "calling" as you'd want to not give away cheap or free cards...

I understand your point. But just remember that there are also passive players out there who much more willingly just call than raise, even on wet boards. I consider myself more of passive than aggressive and my play after the flop would probably be just a call with two pairs and especially with a set. You have to remember that they too can improve their hand into a full house. If I have two pairs for example, I don't want my opponent to fold just yet on the flop. That's why I would rather call than reraise because I wouldn't want to scare my opponent away too soon. Boards can be wet but that doesn't mean that someone automatically has a strong draw.

quick said:
I'm not getting beat here by monsters or even sets most of the time, it's usually someone calling a pre flop bet with 10s8s and the flop comes 10dAd8c, turn will be like 2c, river like 4h and they just flat call me down.... So is it really a villain calling looking for fat value and hoping to check raise me on river with their "monster" that is hardly a monster and is thinking "what does quick have and what does quick think I have AND what does quick think I think quick has" and thus, as you say is calling me down realizing I have a big pair defending against a draw..... or is it just a fish who goes "i have 2 pair, I have monster."

You are right that "monster" might be a wrong word to describe what I meant. Although, I have seen players checking the river with the nuts many times. Myself included, once again. If I check the nuts on river, it's because I have a strong read on my opponent. And if they have been raising on flop and again on turn even though I have called that far, I sometimes take the risk by checking and hoping that they continue to raise on river too. And you know what, they usually do. Of course not every time but often enough. Then again, there are also those who have those two pairs and do exactly the same. You have to consider that maybe they too are trying to keep the pot small by checking because they are just being careful.

quick said:
My issue is I get tripped up trying to figure out if they're competently doing as you say or on wet boards like I described, just completely clueless about board textures and don't realize they should raise on wet boards to not give away cheap draws.

I know the feeling. But that's what makes poker so fun and challenging because you can't never be 100% sure. That's why it's not wrong to take it carefully sometimes

quick · Apr 29, 2018

Dani_California said:
Yeah, you are right that sometimes it is indeed the best hand and like you said, it depends on your opponent as well. Top pair, especially aces, is a hand that gets you quite easily carried away if you are not careful. However, the pot gets big if there is a raise and call on every street so that's why I never feel too thrilled on river if I have nothing but that one pair in that situation.

I understand your point. But just remember that there are also passive players out there who much more willingly just call than raise, even on wet boards. I consider myself more of passive than aggressive and my play after the flop would probably be just a call with two pairs and especially with a set. You have to remember that they too can improve their hand into a full house. If I have two pairs for example, I don't want my opponent to fold just yet on the flop. That's why I would rather call than reraise because I wouldn't want to scare my opponent away too soon. Boards can be wet but that doesn't mean that someone automatically has a strong draw.

You are right that "monster" might be a wrong word to describe what I meant. Although, I have seen players checking the river with the nuts many times. Myself included, once again. If I check the nuts on river, it's because I have a strong read on my opponent. And if they have been raising on flop and again on turn even though I have called that far, I sometimes take the risk by checking and hoping that they continue to raise on river too. And you know what, they usually do. Of course not every time but often enough. Then again, there are also those who have those two pairs and do exactly the same. You have to consider that maybe they too are trying to keep the pot small by checking because they are just being careful.

I know the feeling. But that's what makes poker so fun and challenging because you can't never be 100% sure. That's why it's not wrong to take it carefully sometimes

All well said. Pot control (either on our part or on the villian's part) is often overlooked I guess as a reason for these kind of lines being taken.

Yoda_Priest_X_Napo · Jul 4, 2018

If villain does have something like Q7, that means he has so many Qx that are not all of them 2 pairs that you will be missing so much value if you dont bet the river.

If you talking about a board like 7h8hQd3s3d not going for 3 streets with AQ its criminal mistake, even vs the nittiest.

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Checking back more on rivers where villain just calls along but no big draws complete

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