Is categorizing into LAG or TAG unproductive?

I've been playing poker for roughly 1.5 years and although that isn't a lot, it is enough to have picked up a few things about the game and observe some minor changes in the overall quality of the typical player pools as well as changes to the prominent styles. It's pretty apparent that poker is a lot tougher than it used to be and no doubt will continue to be tougher. Not that I think poker is going to be unprofitable any time soon, especially at the micros, it's just that these days you can come across players even as low as 5NL that seem to actually be capable of reading a hand or thinking!

All that aside though, what I really want to bring up in this thread is a trend, it seems that a lot of talk about poker will bring fourth terms like LAG and TAG style. The thing is I've been wondering about this. Is it really so black and white as to say that the way to win is to play TAG/LAG? It seems to me that playing good winning poker is not so much about playing a specific style or specific range (bar some particular situations) but instead it seems like it's much more dynamic than that. My belief is that winning poker is more about adjusting to dynamics and playing out situations basically finding the right spots and profiting from them or making them profitable.

I just feel that the game is so dynamic, so often changing that banding about such black and white phrases as TAG is effecting the way that people play. I mean no two days are exactly the same and with poker being so dynamic in nature it seems like a winning play needs to always be ready to adjust to these subtle differences and go with the flow so to speak. I'm not sure what I would even consider myself these days. I seem to cross between playing tight some of the time and loose others, at times I might 3 bet any two cards when a specific player opens and others I will fold otherwise decent strength hands. It not only goes one way, I also suspect that categorizing other players into broad categories isn't helpful since no players will play exactly the same every session. Instead I think identifying how someone is playing in any given situation and then using any weakness you identify in order to profit is a much better way to play.


Just my thoughts. What are some of yours?

I think tight play will be rewarded and that loose play will tend to lose money.

If you are playing in the micro's then LAG is not going to be beneficial.

Consider this: Tight poker play means playing essentially only "good" hands, or the hands that are the most likely to win. Wherever you happen to draw that line is fine - but around ~20% we will say is "tight."
The reason these hands will win more often than not is that other players are more likely to play worse hands on average than that 20%. So we will often be beating those players when it comes time to showdown, because we are more likely to be playing a hand that will win.
That is ultimately why tight play is better, you beat people by being more selective in the hands that you play and in the hands that see showdown. For the most part people in the micro stakes play too loose and you don't need to really adjust that much.

So why then would someone need to bluff? Well a good reason to bluff is because someone you bluff will fold a better hand. That is one of the better reasons. Another reason is so that you mix up your play. If your opponent knows that you CAN be bluffing then they are more likely to pay off your "good" hands. I think that is the best reason to bluff, so that your opponent is enticed to call when you have a hand that beats them. Though getting them to fold a better hand is nice too.
Lets apply that reasoning to the micro stakes. Is bluffing (most of the time) going to get a better hand to fold? Well if you have true garbage and you can get a mediocre hand to fold then yes. But if you play a lot of garbage you are probably losing money because people in the micro's call too often. Its one of the leaks in a lot of peoples games. They call when they should not. So are we going to entice people to call our good hands by letting them know we could be bluffing? Not really, for the most part micro players are already taking into consideration that you might be bluffing. Some people actually credit you with it too much for no reason.

So if we will not fold a better hand that much, and if we will not entice people to call our good hands more often then why should we play a LAG style? We shouldn't at those stakes.

TAG allows you to play hands that are more likely to win. It allows you to use the odds in your favor to make money. Poker doesn't change everyday. Poker is the same. You have the same number of cards in the deck, on the field, and in your hand. While your opponents may change, you are still essentially dealing with a situation where odds are going to control a lot of your actions.

As to whether poker is harder now than it has been... I think no. I think it is easier now than it was 3-4 years ago. Fewer people grinding and playing a skillful thoughtful game. I think if you learn and play a TAG game you will have an easier time winning now than you would have not that long ago.

Play the opposite to your opponents seems to work... All nits at the table u loosen up get some free ez money.

Loose players then tighten up and try and stack them off


It's much more complex then that obviously because there maybe a loose aggressive, we can limp in and trap and go for a checkraise.

Tag on our left we need to really think twice about being in the hand and try and avoid being dominated.

Playing LAG or TAG effectively doesn't occur in a vacuum. Good LAGs and TAGs adjust to suit their tables. This doesn't mean, for example, that a good TAG turns into a LAG at a tight table, but rather that he loosens up to the extent that he's still reasonably comfortable doing so.

like 15% to 20% vpip?

your style and range should always be changing, sometimes you should play TAG, sometimes LAG, poker is an incomplete game so no one style dominates

Karozi615 said:

your style and range should always be changing, sometimes you should play TAG, sometimes LAG, poker is an incomplete game so no one style dominates

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This is too simplistic since it assumes a given player is equally effective playing TAG and LAG. Theoretically, it's obviously advantageous to play in whatever way is best against your opponents at the time. In practice however, trying to play a style you're not good enough at isn't necessarily optimal.

Arjonius

Players at the top of the food chain don't subscribe to a style, at all

And really, I think it's fair to say that a TAG style of play is easy to adopt but hard to win with, while a LAG style is much harder to adopt but the winning margin is greater

LAGGY players have to make thinner calls and thinner folds - IMO laggy players are just solid and experienced, they aren't LAGGY because they've made a conscious decision to be that, they just know how to navigate post flop and find +ev spots

I hate trying to classify poker players

Everyone of course has a style that's unique to them, but we all know that in order to win you need to play agressive, and some people play wider ranges, other are more choosy. So you can easily categorize players.

I tried playing LAG in micro's but it backfired. People simply call too much there. The most recent pots I lost, the oponnent called me with an Ace-rag on a board A Q J K J. After this moment I stopped playing LAG at once. I may pull off some bluffs, and make lose plays to vary my play against better players, but in general tight play seems to crush the stakes.

Karozi615 said:

Arjonius

Players at the top of the food chain don't subscribe to a style, at all

And really, I think it's fair to say that a TAG style of play is easy to adopt but hard to win with, while a LAG style is much harder to adopt but the winning margin is greater

LAGGY players have to make thinner calls and thinner folds - IMO laggy players are just solid and experienced, they aren't LAGGY because they've made a conscious decision to be that, they just know how to navigate post flop and find +ev spots

I hate trying to classify poker players

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This is sort of what I was getting at with this thread, that all these LAG/TAG is too black and white. Instead of making conscious decisions to play a specific "style" players should just play dynamically and just identify +EV spots and go with it. Weather that means squeezing with suited broad ways as a semi bluff or opting to play the absolute top of your range or value betting second pair for thin value to checking to induce a bluff from missed draws.

Karozi615 said:

Arjonius

Players at the top of the food chain don't subscribe to a style, at all

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I think it would be more accurate to say that top players can vary their play very widely as situations require without diminishing their effectiveness. But because they can doesn't mean those of us who are nowhere near the top of the food chain can.

And really, I think it's fair to say that a TAG style of play is easy to adopt but hard to win with, while a LAG style is much harder to adopt but the winning margin is greater

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I basically agree except that it's not hard to win playing TAG at low levels.

I hate trying to classify poker players

Click to expand...

I'm curious why since I neither like nor dislike it.

Hi All !

I have played poker for few month now and trying to build up my bankroll at SNG $1.5 and some freeroll tournaments. I do really try to play TAG, but i am just breaking even as there are so many LAG a BINGO players that I lost my last 5-6 premium hands to some crazy ..Why not to call AIs...players who are calling my AIs with 810os and get straight or A2 against KK and river gets him Ace.... what to say ....

I would really like to get some advice as to win 2 and then loos 2-3 SnG to crazy BINGO player is getting me on TILT.

Regarding the marking of : TAG, LAG, TAP, or BINGO is helping just a little as on this lvls players seem not to care if they win or loose.

What should I input into player notes pls ???

Thank YOu for your help

And good luck !

loafes said:

I've been playing poker for roughly 1.5 years and although that isn't a lot, it is enough to have picked up a few things about the game and observe some minor changes in the overall quality of the typical player pools as well as changes to the prominent styles. It's pretty apparent that poker is a lot tougher than it used to be and no doubt will continue to be tougher. Not that I think poker is going to be unprofitable any time soon, especially at the micros, it's just that these days you can come across players even as low as 5NL that seem to actually be capable of reading a hand or thinking!

All that aside though, what I really want to bring up in this thread is a trend, it seems that a lot of talk about poker will bring fourth terms like LAG and TAG style. The thing is I've been wondering about this. Is it really so black and white as to say that the way to win is to play TAG/LAG? It seems to me that playing good winning poker is not so much about playing a specific style or specific range (bar some particular situations) but instead it seems like it's much more dynamic than that. My belief is that winning poker is more about adjusting to dynamics and playing out situations basically finding the right spots and profiting from them or making them profitable.

I just feel that the game is so dynamic, so often changing that banding about such black and white phrases as TAG is effecting the way that people play. I mean no two days are exactly the same and with poker being so dynamic in nature it seems like a winning play needs to always be ready to adjust to these subtle differences and go with the flow so to speak. I'm not sure what I would even consider myself these days. I seem to cross between playing tight some of the time and loose others, at times I might 3 bet any two cards when a specific player opens and others I will fold otherwise decent strength hands. It not only goes one way, I also suspect that categorizing other players into broad categories isn't helpful since no players will play exactly the same every session. Instead I think identifying how someone is playing in any given situation and then using any weakness you identify in order to profit is a much better way to play.


Just my thoughts. What are some of yours?

Click to expand...

I don't mean to de-rail but I just wondered why your posts are often in such a tiny font. Have you changed the default or do you have to alter it as you compose. I feel that it makes them harder to read but that may be because I need new glasses

Samango said:

I don't mean to de-rail but I just wondered why your posts are often in such a tiny font. Have you changed the default or do you have to alter it as you compose. I feel that it makes them harder to read but that may be because I need new glasses

Click to expand...

The other day I was using a different laptop than normal and my text seemed way way too big. So I changed the font size in each post. But apparently the screen must have been zoomed in or something because when I came back with my regular device I discovered that instead of being too big, my text was apparently too small.

Aah, a minor temporary blip,
Glad you got that sorted, that's much better now
Thanks for humouring my curiosity

The reason your probably losing to the bingo player is starting hand selection not letting a hand go not raising enough or too much these MIGHT be some.of the reasons and I agree about how lag is harder to adapt but more bb/100 and Imo lag probably gets you more than tag at lower levels but of course tag for newbies and I say lag is more bb/100 because the more hands that you get to play with docks and the more mistakes you allow them to make the more $ you're going to make

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