Cash Games: epic bad run that depletes your bankroll? how do you deal with it?

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Hunterholliday

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hey guys,
sorry about the long post, venting more than anything.

im pretty downtrodden and just need to hear from you guys how you deal with these situations, and I really just want to know if this is something that can actually happen to good poker players? or am i just that bad and need to reevaluate my entire process....my resolve is still here to get good at and become a professional poker player, i just cant believe this happens very often can it?

the situation....
ive got a standing bankroll of 25BI' for 25NL

ive been 4 tabling 25NL for a while and feel confident in my ability to beat the limit. so yesterday i tried taking a shot at .25/.50 and was stacked immediately. it was a crappy bluff that i called out, but he sucked out on me. not relavent i guess but it sets the tone as I just KNEW i could beat that table at least, if not the limit. long story short, I end up losing 8 BI at the .25/.50 BI, all as a result of me seeing the plays and just *knowing* i could take advantage. some of the BI's were suck outs when i got the money in good, but most were just me chasing loose draws in an attempt to catch even a mid pair against several of the maniacs at the table. so before any of you crush me for it, I already know, I obviously am not ready to move up to that level yet haha and in retrospect should not have waited 8 BI's to find that out, i got mesmerized by the carrot on the stick of a table playing super loose and super bad.

the part that im worried about is the extremely bad run i went on AFTER i moved back down to my limit. Im definitly a guy who has evaluated that I go on tilt, but Im also a guy whose 'tilt factor' is almost completely gone after a few minutes to an hour. I stopped playing for 3 hours just to be safe as it was such a big hit to my bankroll. so then I went back to work at 25NL. what happened over the course of the next 8 hours really knocked my confidence down and made me question if i have what it takes.
some of the hands that stacked me
-set on the flop to over pair, got the money in on the turn, rivered a set
-flopped a straight vs villain set, all in on the blank turn, rivered fullhouse
-called out a maniacs jam bluff on the flop, he hits two pair by the river

there were a few more like this but the point is clear....i went on a SUPER bad run and it coincided with a big hit i took to my bankroll after trying to move up. ive looked over the important hands that resulted in most of the losses i took back down at the 25NL games and they are all plays that i got the money in good....just wasnt my day. i will be honest and say that the last 2 buy ins were a result of tilt...but at that point i can say it didnt matter... the difference between 2450$ and 2500 dollars not huge ya know?

the point is that in the course of 1 day I had depleted my entire bankroll, something that had taken me about 6 months to buildup. i feel like i hit the "unlucky lottery" and had the worst possible run of hands ever.

has this happened to any of you? i get having generally bad days/weeks/months. but all of it hitting in the course of a 15 hour session is something i never thought of as being able to happen....can any one attest to this?

any critisms or anecdotes you have will make me feel a lot better about me trying to figure out what happened...thanks in advance
 
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Jreece18

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I'm nowhere near your level and I have already recommended this recently on another thread (as I'm reading it currently), but have you read The Mental Game of Poker? Has sections on confidence and gives you an understand of dealing with tilt etc.

Unsure if I've misread, but so you had 25 BI's for 25nl and you took a shot at 50nl losing 8 BI's at 50 or 25? Doesn't sound like the greatest BRM...

If your confidence is shot and the bad run isn't helping, you could move down to 10nl or something you know you can crush and try and get a nice run at that for confidence building? If you've really destroyed your bankroll, I do think it'd be best to go down to where you're properly rolled and move back up again.

Then again, I'm a microstakes noob who's only just gotten out of 2nl haha. But I feel like I'm good at BRM and I feel like when I get past 10nl I'd have an even nittier bankroll like 40 BI's. As you're playing good players, I'm sure there's larger swings compared to the micros where it's almost impossible to go bust.
 
wildyetty

wildyetty

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Take a week off make your deposit and start over with good thoughts. Get the crap that happened out of your head, happens all the time to the best players.

Watch Jenn Harmons comments about the ealy years with Daniel Negraneu in his Protege show that aired on TSN

PS he mentions my casino in it :D
 
Jillychemung

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Take some time off, do some work on your tilt issues. Play some other playmoney games like Razz, LO8, Stud8 to work on your patience. Refocus and when you redeposit, start with an energized attitude.
 
John A

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Take a break for several days... get your mind totally off poker. Put some sticky notes on your monitor to play your A game, and if you're not quit. Work on your tilt issues.
 
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CSINSC

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hey guys,
sorry about the long post, venting more than anything.

im pretty downtrodden and just need to hear from you guys how you deal with these situations, and I really just want to know if this is something that can actually happen to good poker players? or am i just that bad and need to reevaluate my entire process....my resolve is still here to get good at and become a professional poker player, i just cant believe this happens very often can it?

the situation....
ive got a standing bankroll of 25BI' for 25NL

ive been 4 tabling 25NL for a while and feel confident in my ability to beat the limit. so yesterday i tried taking a shot at .25/.50 and was stacked immediately. it was a crappy bluff that i called out, but he sucked out on me. not relavent i guess but it sets the tone as I just KNEW i could beat that table at least, if not the limit. long story short, I end up losing 8 BI at the .25/.50 BI, all as a result of me seeing the plays and just *knowing* i could take advantage. some of the BI's were suck outs when i got the money in good, but most were just me chasing loose draws in an attempt to catch even a mid pair against several of the maniacs at the table. so before any of you crush me for it, I already know, I obviously am not ready to move up to that level yet haha and in retrospect should not have waited 8 BI's to find that out, i got mesmerized by the carrot on the stick of a table playing super loose and super bad.

the part that im worried about is the extremely bad run i went on AFTER i moved back down to my limit. Im definitly a guy who has evaluated that I go on tilt, but Im also a guy whose 'tilt factor' is almost completely gone after a few minutes to an hour. I stopped playing for 3 hours just to be safe as it was such a big hit to my bankroll. so then I went back to work at 25NL. what happened over the course of the next 8 hours really knocked my confidence down and made me question if i have what it takes.
some of the hands that stacked me
-set on the flop to over pair, got the money in on the turn, rivered a set
-flopped a straight vs villain set, all in on the blank turn, rivered fullhouse
-called out a maniacs jam bluff on the flop, he hits two pair by the river

there were a few more like this but the point is clear....i went on a SUPER bad run and it coincided with a big hit i took to my bankroll after trying to move up. ive looked over the important hands that resulted in most of the losses i took back down at the 25NL games and they are all plays that i got the money in good....just wasnt my day. i will be honest and say that the last 2 buy ins were a result of tilt...but at that point i can say it didnt matter... the difference between 2450$ and 2500 dollars not huge ya know?

the point is that in the course of 1 day I had depleted my entire bankroll, something that had taken me about 6 months to buildup. i feel like i hit the "unlucky lottery" and had the worst possible run of hands ever.

has this happened to any of you? i get having generally bad days/weeks/months. but all of it hitting in the course of a 15 hour session is something i never thought of as being able to happen....can any one attest to this?

any critisms or anecdotes you have will make me feel a lot better about me trying to figure out what happened...thanks in advance



So looking at your blog I see a couple of GLARING things that U did wrong, but let me tell you first of all the thing you did right. You had 25 max buy-ins at .10/.25 NL which equals $625.00 and you should have a minimum of 20 max buy-ins at whatever stakes you play so by having 25 that is commendable.

I'm not sure where you later come up with the numbers of losing $2450 or $2500. If you are playing $.10/.25 NL then 1 max buy-in is 100bb at $.25 each for a grand total of $25.00. If you multiply $25.00(max buy-in) x 25(buy-ins) you come up with $625 so once again I don't understand how you came up with the numbers of losing $2450 or $2500.:confused:

You should almost NEVER have more than 10% of your bankroll in play at one time. If you are playing $.10/.25 NL at a max-buy of 100bb's & you lose 2.5 buy-ins that is $62.50 which is exactly 10% on your bankroll. Personally I like to have 3 buy-ins for a session so that would equal $75.00 if you lose, which is why I like to have 30 max buy-ins at a level so I don't exceed my 10% rule. For example let's say I had 30 max buy-ins at $.10/.25 NL which would equal $750.00 If I lose 3 max buy-ins at the $.10/.25 NL that is $75.00 which is equal to exactly 10% of my bankroll.

People have downswings all the time & the majority of people go on tilt so I would STRONGLY recommend you have a STOP LOSS of 3 buy-ins max.

Also the 20-30 max buy-in bankroll management (BRM) is for 1 table only. If you are 4 tabling then you should have a BR of 20-30 max buy-ins for each table you play at a time.

So my analysis is you should have 20-30 max buy-ins for EACH table you play & U MUST have a stop loss of 3 max buy-ins per table. When U have a losing session which WILL happen U only lose 3 max buy-ins so the next session you still have a very HEALTHY bankroll. If U have a bad session & lose the max 10% then U still have a robust 90% of your bankroll left.

Think of this also when U lost 8 max buy-ins at $.25/50 that is equal to 16 max buy-ins at $.10/.25 & REMEMBER you should have a stop loss of 3 max buy-ins so you exceeded that 3 max loss by-in by OVER 5x.

Another thing is U should NEVER be into the game for more than U have ever won or could win back. For example you were in for 8 buy-ins at $.25/.50 NL which is $400 so have U ever won more than $400 in 1 session at a $.25/.50 NL game? If U have never won that amount at a game then it is ludicrous to be stuck that much in the game if U can never win it back.

I apologize profusely if I sound harsh in these matters, but I ONLY know how to tell the unabashed truth. Since I am NOT good at sugarcoating the truth then a lot of the times the truth sound brutal since most people ONLY hear a version of the truth instead of the whole truth

I wish you luck in building your bankroll back up.
 
rytciaq

rytciaq

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You can't have a run so bad and long that depletes your bankroll greatly if you use bankroll management. But on topic, when an epic bad run happens, just close the poker client and take a break. Remember that for someone to win, someone has got to lose.
 
H

Hunterholliday

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thanks for the responses guys...

on that initial post sorry i dont know where that 2500$ came from serious typo there my apologies. pretty heated when i was writing and reliving it haha.

that being said your analysis and suggestions hold true. ive had some time today to cool off and reflect outside of a tilted mindset and what you are saying is absolutely true. 25BI is drastically short of the safety net i should have when managing my bankroll. i should have that for each table...noted for the future... and if i decide to take a shot and move up my bankroll should accomodate THAT level and not the one im at. when i went up i should have had easily 1500-2000 in the bank to attempt it. not the 700 i actually had. by the time lost 8 BI(when i definitely should have stopped at 2-3) at 50NL half my stack was gone...unacceptable. ill take it easy and start over...new goal in sight..

again thanks for the comments and insights...
 
TimovieMan

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Actually, 25BI isn't that short. You just need the discipline to drop to lower stakes as soon as that number of BIs drops under 20.
 
Aces2w1n

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When moving limits this is one of the most dangerous spots for bankrolls. Bigger losses thsn normal can reign havoc on the mind
 
bitowl

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I went on massive tilt swings early on when starting to play poker. Like -15BI in a night then move up stakes and try to get even. I'm glad I had those experiences because I learned that I have that tilted/gambling issue somewhere within me, so I'm super cautious now.

If I'm on a really bad downswing I just start setting ridiculous stop losses like quitting after -1BI or quitting if losing money after 30mins. It drags out downswings but I'm pretty convinced its overall +EV because I'm never playing anything but my A game. I always used to dust off stacks after being down a few buy ins just from pure tilt. Need to remove that from your game either psychologically or just straight up quitting like I do.

Also drop down in limits to get your confidence back and regrind your losses.
 
H

Hunterholliday

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I went on massive tilt swings early on when starting to play poker. Like -15BI in a night then move up stakes and try to get even. I'm glad I had those experiences because I learned that I have that tilted/gambling issue somewhere within me, so I'm super cautious now.

If I'm on a really bad downswing I just start setting ridiculous stop losses like quitting after -1BI or quitting if losing money after 30mins. It drags out downswings but I'm pretty convinced its overall +EV because I'm never playing anything but my A game. I always used to dust off stacks after being down a few buy ins just from pure tilt. Need to remove that from your game either psychologically or just straight up quitting like I do.

Also drop down in limits to get your confidence back and regrind your losses.




this is propably THE most relatable thing ive read so far...this is me to a T and unfortunately im learning this right now....fortunately its not at higher stakes while im actually depending on this for income....trying to move up to make up for losses is the biggest problem ive seen. im so emotionally right now....at least i know this is something other people have had to work through and that they can be worked through... thanks for sharing
 
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CSINSC

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Actually, 25BI isn't that short. You just need the discipline to drop to lower stakes as soon as that number of BIs drops under 20.

I agree 25 buy-ins is not short for a NL table & I recommend a min of 20 buy-ins although I try to do 30 buy-ins.

What the gentleman was saying was he had 25 buy-ins for 1 table, but he was playing 4 tables at once, therefore he should have 25 buy-ins for each table that he plays concurrently.
 
bitowl

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this is me to a T and unfortunately im learning this right now....fortunately its not at higher stakes while im actually depending on this for income...

It's definitely not uncommon to go on a really bad run and then move up stakes trying to get even. It's classic gambling mentality.

I think some % of people just don't have that gene. They'll get frustrated and mad but it doesn't even occur to them to start taking more risks. Others just learn from one or a few big mistakes and figure out how to recognize that destructive thought pattern and step away from the games until they cool down.

I feel sort of bad for the guys who run super hot for their first 100k hands or so and never get hit with a really big downswing. When it finally comes, they go to pieces and tilt off their entire bank roll and disappear. In a way they were unlucky to be so lucky early on.
 
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tim19999

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have the same thing against, but sometimes i have the same thing with me like all- in with 24suited and win with a pair 2 against JK suited
 
Aaron Soto

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My suggestion, I think your playing way to many tables. 4 way multi-table is a lot of thinking and requires a huge amount of skill. If you are unable to crush on one table, and you lost some buy-ins do you really think 4 of them will do the trick? No it won't. You need to practice Bankroll Management do not move up in stakes. Stay on one table and focus good wait until you have up most confidence. I suggest logging off of online poker after losing 1-2 BI for the day. There is no way a person can recover from tilt in an hour or two after losing so much. No way but good luck
 
PokerNinja91

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Firstly, when moving up stakes - Set yourself an amount that you can 'afford to lose', say 4 buy ins and remove the auto top up function, if you win win win then great, you now have X amount of buy ins to continue your shot. If you lose your four buy ins then jump back down to your regular games until you have made those 4 buy ins for the next stake.
Secondly, it sounds like you have tilt problems and we've all been there. You need to find a way to curb it, I personally stop playing after I have lost 5 buy ins in one session. It can be difficult to stop playing because you want to win back the money you worked so hard for but you must realise that in your tilt induced state you are only going to lose more. If you really can't stop then just go and enter some micro stakes sit n gos or MTTs to curb your boredom and to help get your mind back on track.
Also as a side note - I personally think that at 25NL+ you need a bigger bankroll than 25BI as standard (particularly if you are prone to tilt) as the swings are bigger due to the average player being better and more aggressive. Try 40 Buy Ins.
 
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CSINSC

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It's definitely not uncommon to go on a really bad run and then move up stakes trying to get even. It's classic gambling mentality.

I think some % of people just don't have that gene. They'll get frustrated and mad but it doesn't even occur to them to start taking more risks. Others just learn from one or a few big mistakes and figure out how to recognize that destructive thought pattern and step away from the games until they cool down.

I feel sort of bad for the guys who run super hot for their first 100k hands or so and never get hit with a really big downswing. When it finally comes, they go to pieces and tilt off their entire bank roll and disappear. In a way they were unlucky to be so lucky early on.

I wish I would have read this about 3 years ago. For 3 years losing at smaller stakes that was within my bankroll & going up to higher stakes was the bane of my existence.

You say "It's classic gambling mentality". I couldn't agree with you more & you are 100% correct. Your statement kind of hit home to me & even though your statement is maybe only meant to be simplistic in its delivery it is vastly thought-provoking in its meaning.

Once again I can't tell you how many times if I was playing at a stakes w/in my bankroll and I would lose 1 or 2 buy-ins I would INSTANTLY & STUPIDLY jump up in stakes to recover my losses & not even think about how much riskier it would be.

I'm glad to state that I very very rarely do that anymore & my New Year's resolution was to practice BRM 100% of the time & I have NOT strayed from that this year. Granted the year is only 1 month long, but U have to start somewhere, HaHa.
 
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My suggestion, I think your playing way to many tables. 4 way multi-table is a lot of thinking and requires a huge amount of skill. If you are unable to crush on one table, and you lost some buy-ins do you really think 4 of them will do the trick? No it won't. You need to practice Bankroll Management do not move up in stakes. Stay on one table and focus good wait until you have up most confidence. I suggest logging off of online Poker after losing 1-2 BI for the day. There is no way a person can recover from tilt in an hour or two after losing so much. No way but good luck

A lot of people don't take into account what you said, however that doesn't make it any less valid.

You are very correct when U say if U can't crush/win at 1 table then why in the world would U think you can do it at 4.

What finally taught me this lesson was someone saying that when I was playing 6 tables & we went over my hand history & he painstakingly pointed out ALL the mistakes I had made. There was absolutely nothing I could disparage about his remarks, because even I could glean from the hand histories ALL the idiotic mistakes/missed opportunities I had partaken in.
 
Aceplayer55

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It really doesn't matter how many BIs your bankroll is, if you are going to lose it all in just one day...
 
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This stuff is normal we all make moves from time to time as well, don't sweat it.

Just drop down, grind a few hours in some lower stakes and no matter what don't try to force anything - don't force wins.

Things will be fine, after 1k hands at the lower level go back to your regular spot
 
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I'm having this issue too. Just last night I lost half my bankroll playing a combination of 25NL and 50NL when I should only be playing 10NL. I had one of those "I just want to see what 50NL is like" moments where I only wanted to play a few hundred hands and didn't want to win/lose more than $10, but ended up losing multiple buyins over 300 hands.

At least losing half of a micro stakes BR isn't the end of the world and I'm glad I had this experience sooner rather than later. I'll continue grinding 5NL and 10NL and try to be more disciplined in the future.

It was interesting to read everyone else's responses and I do agree that it's a gambling mentality that can be very destructive. Imagine how bad it would've been if instead of losing a 25NL roll at 50NL, you lost a 200NL roll at 500NL. If instead of losing $600 because of tilt, you lose $6k because of tilt and had to redeposit $6k. Consider yourself lucky that it's only $600 and you can recover financially in a few weeks.
 
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Dont try to move up if you dont have the bankroll to play in the upper level, ever.

But if you cant resist and just want to CHECK the upper level, just go there with 1 buy-in only. You lost? Well, time to stop. Another time you can go there again. Only if you are winning you should stay there.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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In short you need a put in place a stop loss. Once you are down several buy ins it sounds like you dont have the emotional stability to retain your A game.

I suggest you finish the session for the day after droping 5bi.

Oh, and I strongly advise you dont try 50nl again until you have at least 50 buy ins.

Pretty much every semi pro or rec player has probably abused their roll like you have done at least once. Take a week out, and work your way back up again when your head is in the right place.
 
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