cash game strategy!

seeyouthru said:

yesterday i came across a pretty intresting NL50 full ring table!
i saw players limping too much and calling a lot!
so i picked up Ako on Hijack and open raise to 3.5x
player from bb defended with like 80bigs stack.
flop came j92.
they checked i cbet 50% pot.
he calls.
turn 5
again they check.

i bet 30% pot on turn they call.
river is 8.
they check i check back.
they show 27o.
another hand i played 3 handed player from ep opens to like 3x i call from CO with 910s.
Sb also calls.
flop is 78Kr.
Check check and i bet 40% pot.
original raiser folds sb calls.
turn Q.(no fd)
check and i bet like 30% of pot!
sb calls.
River 2.
Sb checks river and here i have like 70BB remaining and sb also ha like 65BB remaining.
i decided to bluff and overbet the pot like 60BB around 90% of remaining stack.
Sb calls.
just as i was about to be disgusted by myself sb shows 56 (6 high and busted straight draw) i am not joking.
and after that many hands i played i saw getting not really that many folds.
Now my question here really is.
Do you alter your game here?
do you limp and keep it cheap preflop with like AQo from Hj mainly because you have No fold equity here and even if you choose a bigger preflop raise size which i tried i still got like 2 to 3 average caller.
Do you raise only JJ+ and AKs and limp behind most of the time or you have a different strategy in mind?

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Spewster said:

Of course you need to alter your game. The standart advice here is: "play tight and bet your monsters for value" But you know what will happen...you're card dead for two hours and when you have AQo+, flop comes Q34ss and some moron kills you with Q3o.


I guess you can play a little ...so what's the alternative?



Lets look at the theory and take the AKQ game.

Always bet A, never bet K but use it as a bluff catcher and sometimes bet Q as a bluff.
That's a polarized range vs Bluffcatcher. Usually the Preflop raiser has the polarized range and the preflop caller has the bluffcatcher, because his range is capped.


Looking at those games, people "bluffcatch" too much, e.g. they call down with shit (because fish hate to get bluffed). How does that shift your range?

Always bet A for value, never bluff with Q (as they are over - bluffcatching) and bet part(!) of your K's for value as well.
So instead of betting the top and bottom of your range, you bet the top as a portion of the middle of your range, but never the bottom.


Transitioning over to NLH, your preflop game looks different. First of all, don't overplay unsuited broadways preflop. KQo, AJo, AQo, PP below TT should be folded in EP. Instead play suited hands wider, AKs KQs, AQs...down to 89s, since you always need backup equity to a nutted hand and you get more board coverage. Also don't raise 4x for "value", raise 3x to collect as many callers as possible, which boosts your pot odds.

Again, very important. If you raise 4x and get 5 callers, the pot is 21.5bb so your maneuverability postflop is limited even when you're 100bb deep.
If you raise 3x and get 5 callers, the pot is only 16.5bb big. Compare 1/3pot and 1/2pot cbets in both pots. Consider even opening 2.5x from MP or later when nobody is 3betting.


Next, you try to get position on everyone. On the button, suited connectors and small PP's are your best friends, since implieds are sky high. With AA, KK, QQ in late position, just bomb the pot and overbet pre.


The flop is a little different. As mentioned in the AKQ example, you don't cbet with air (not even AK!), since fold equity is zero. But - and this is the big difference - don't check your middle pairs or two pairs, but bet them for value on flops that allow it.

89K double suited, don't bet your 9Ts untill you also have a flush draw. On K72 rainbow, bet your 67s, but with 1/3 pot. As they're all passive stations, risk of a raise is small, so you can abuse that to controll the pot. Don't make the mistake and 1/2pot or 3/4pot, since you will just bloat the pot, which is the last thing you want with a marginal hand that has show down value. Bet 1/3pot on flop and see a cheap turn.

Thin value betting will boost your win rate by a huge amount. If done wrong (betsize too large/bloating the bot), you'll dig your own grave since you'll amplify variance. If done correctly (small pots with marginal hands, big pots with nutted hands), you'll keep variance low and crush the table.


TL;DR:
- Controll the pot and start pre. If you raise too big pre, you'll basically play for stacks on turn and river. Not good.

- Remove unsuited broadways from opening range, add more connectors in EP and low PP's late.

- On the flop, check back air and bet middle pairs, low 2pair for value while keeping the pot small.

- Lose small when you lose, win big, when you win. Your edge is postflop, so try to play as many small pots as possible with hands that have large implied odds and start bloating the pot once you have nutted value.


Have fun crushing the fish.

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MemphisGrind said:

Again, very important. If you raise 4x and get 5 callers, the pot is 21.5bb so your maneuverability postflop is limited even when you're 100bb deep.
If you raise 3x and get 5 callers, the pot is only 16.5bb big. Compare 1/3pot and 1/2pot cbets in both pots. Consider even opening 2.5x from MP or later when nobody is 3betting.

I agree with most of what you wrote except for the fact that as described by OP the table is limping often an calling a lot. You want to increase your open for Value hands. If you change your open to 2.5x you lose massive amounts of information and play many multi-way pots. In tournaments at tight GTO based tables this is a fine strategy, but against a table as OP described you will lose playing this way. Most of these players as described are not folding once they get in the hand especially if they hit ANY piece of the board. You can't use sound theory and strategy against stations. You can however get Max value form them.

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Spewster said:

Well, thing is that most hands you usually raise pre for value make good TPTK hands. And TPTK sucks in multiway pots vs stations. So by raising TPTK hands aka unsuited broadways, you increase variance since you play a bloated pot and hit only 1/3 of your TPTK with zero fold equity to balance it out.

In these games you either play a lot of implied hands with good pot odds, which works perfectly against stations since they never raise. So you lose small pots very often and rarely win very big pots.

Or you raise by an amount that is so big that you get exactly one caller...which is a coinflip.

Since you are the better player, you need to abuse your skill postflop. But how are you playing postflop, when the pot is already 30bb big and nobody folds to bluffs and cbets?. Its hit or miss. So kèep the pot small untill you hit something and THEN bloat it. Value betting pre doesnt work so well untill(!) you are able to reload mutlible times. But again, OP is not playing against a maniac or aggro donk. Here I would agree. Hes playing against people who dont fold, but also dont raise. Big difference.

Also, just my 2cta, since I basically learned poker in those games

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MemphisGrind said:

I think our disagreement starts from the fact that we have two different playing styles. I am LAG I haven't played stakes lower than 300 NL in years, so I might be incorrect.The fact of the matter for this kind of table is how often are you going to raise 5x and get forced into a multi way pot? Let's take this piece by piece, say you are in early position I'm opening 5% of my range 5X even if I go multi-way I'm facing at max a 20bb pot most times 15bb with at min. 100bb. I'm getting my value in pre while ahead I'm not looking for TPTK playing 5% of my range I'm hoping to 4 bet or play flop cautiously. Later position I'm playing 20% of my range and I mix a lot of hands that play well post flop not in my 20% range and 3 betting or opening 10x If I still get 3 way pot I'l adjust open even higher till its heads up. I get where you are coming from on wanting to play post flop because "we are the better player" however the fact is we don't hit the board often and will be forced into far more difficult situations playing small ball against these stations and trying to start fishing for value once you hit, which is extremely exploitable. You should always be able to reload many times. I play with 30 buy ins at minimum.
"In these games you either play a lot of implied hands with good pot odds, which works perfectly against stations since they never raise. So you lose small pots very often and rarely win very big pots." I hear you and have seen people use this strategy, it's very weak IMO if that's your style and it's profitable for you then I see merit in this, however I like being in charge.

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Spewster said:

Well, thing is that most hands you usually raise pre for value make good TPTK hands. And TPTK sucks in multiway pots vs stations. So by raising TPTK hands aka unsuited broadways, you increase variance since you play a bloated pot and hit only 1/3 of your TPTK with zero fold equity to balance it out.

In these games you either play a lot of implied hands with good pot odds, which works perfectly against stations since they never raise. So you lose small pots very often and rarely win very big pots.

Or you raise by an amount that is so big that you get exactly one caller...which is a coinflip.

Since you are the better player, you need to abuse your skill postflop. But how are you playing postflop, when the pot is already 30bb big and nobody folds to bluffs and cbets?. Its hit or miss. So kèep the pot small untill you hit something and THEN bloat it. Value betting pre doesnt work so well untill(!) you are able to reload mutlible times. But again, OP is not playing against a maniac or aggro donk. Here I would agree. Hes playing against people who dont fold, but also dont raise. Big difference.

Also, just my 2cta, since I basically learned poker in those games

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Spewster said:

Well, I play LAG as well, but I's not been as long as years, since I played a donkfest against stations In those games you're almost always in multiway pots. Peolple just don't know better. They limp with ATs from UTG and call a 3bet from the button...and since there are already 5 callers, they even get great odds.

I also wanted to play classic ABC in the first place, but this doesn't cut the cheese. Think about an opponent who will always call any bet, but has 6 hole cards and you have only two.
I'm glad that these days are over for me, but I learned playing postflop in those games.

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neafana said:

))))) WTF. Tell me the site that you play. This is printing money))

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