Cash Game Etiquette Question

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Caryn

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I know all things "etiquette" are a matter of personal opinion, but I'm looking for a general poll on this because I haven't seen anyone else do this and I don't want to be doing anything considered rude.

Since I'm working on building a bankroll from scratch, I shoot for a personal goal at tables. I buy in with $200, but won't let my stack go under $100. If I'm at a cold table (crap cards, muscle table, etc.) then I'll pull $100 out and put it back in the rack. (After another round of the button, I'll go on the list for a different table.)

On the other hand, if I'm at a great table (AKA-- getting lucky) I'll pull out my initial buy in as soon as I've hit 50% profit. Then every round of the button I'll pull another $50 and store it in the rack.

In other words, I'm pulling money out to protect it from a bad play. Not *immediately* after winning, but before I make a habit of doing that I'm curious if that's considered poor table manners or smart strategy?
 
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Caryn

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Nevermind, I found the answer and will NOT be doing this! (PS- how do I delete this post?)
 
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Click400

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I know all things "etiquette" are a matter of personal opinion, but I'm looking for a general poll on this because I haven't seen anyone else do this and I don't want to be doing anything considered rude.

Since I'm working on building a bankroll from scratch, I shoot for a personal goal at tables. I buy in with $200, but won't let my stack go under $100. If I'm at a cold table (crap cards, muscle table, etc.) then I'll pull $100 out and put it back in the rack. (After another round of the button, I'll go on the list for a different table.)

On the other hand, if I'm at a great table (AKA-- getting lucky) I'll pull out my initial buy in as soon as I've hit 50% profit. Then every round of the button I'll pull another $50 and store it in the rack.

In other words, I'm pulling money out to protect it from a bad play. Not *immediately* after winning, but before I make a habit of doing that I'm curious if that's considered poor table manners or smart strategy?


You get stressed easily, just to assume that your performance is not good in long tournaments. Or I'm wrong?
 
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You get stressed easily, just to assume that your performance is not good in long tournaments. Or I'm wrong?

No, the casino I play in is brand new and won't be starting tourneys for another month or 2. I've been playing the $1/2 cash tables in the meantime, but I can't wait for the tournaments! I actually prefer them :)

However, I AM stressed to discover that I broke a rule today by "going south" and now I'm very embarrassed to admit that I did that. Only once, and never again but please anyone who is judging me-- I didn't realize I was doing something wrong today! (Also, wasn't playing any hands at Table #1 anyways and Table #2 I was winning them all so it probably worked out better for everyone, BUT...)

Regarding stress though... I am a very patient and disciplined player. But I can also sense when a certain (cash) table just isn't the right one for me. Call it women's intuition?
 
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Caryn

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We live and learn:)

Yes! I've had a few moments of stress over "why did I fold that" or "damn river", but this one deserves a night. Just one.

And tomorrow, if I see any players from the same table I may even apologize. I'm sure if anyone had noticed they would have called me out and let me know that's a no-no.
 
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It's called rat hole-ing and it is frowned upon. Although it's your money technically. I've taken chips off my stack to buy-in to a tournament. It is bad etiquette but it's only because the other players want your money.
 
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It's called rat hole-ing and it is frowned upon. Although it's your money technically. I've taken chips off my stack to buy-in to a tournament. It is bad etiquette but it's only because the other players want your money.

Oh see, I found it as "going south". Either way, I'm actually happy now because I'm learning something new every day in this journey.

My background was in tournaments where you play until you win (or, don't) so I'm still learning the ropes at these sit-and-go cash games-- and for the most part I think I've been doing it right with a little hiccup today. As far as wins, I tend to count how long I should stay by "rounds of the button". If nothing hits for 2 rounds, I walk.

Would love to sit for an 8-10 hour shift but I'm also a single mom and the little humans take priority, so 3-4 hours tends to be my limit for "mommy" playtime.
 
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No, the casino I play in is brand new and won't be starting tourneys for another month or 2. I've been playing the $1/2 cash tables in the meantime, but I can't wait for the tournaments! I actually prefer them :)

However, I AM stressed to discover that I broke a rule today by "going south" and now I'm very embarrassed to admit that I did that. Only once, and never again but please anyone who is judging me-- I didn't realize I was doing something wrong today! (Also, wasn't playing any hands at Table #1 anyways and Table #2 I was winning them all so it probably worked out better for everyone, BUT...)

Regarding stress though... I am a very patient and disciplined player. But I can also sense when a certain (cash) table just isn't the right one for me. Call it women's intuition?


Intuition seems to me an important factor, analyzing situations and making decisions based on this is a strength. (Cold mind)

On the other hand I really like that you self-analyze and be critical of yourself, this will make you grow a lot as a professional. :D
 
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Oh see, I found it as "going south". Either way, I'm actually happy now because I'm learning something new every day in this journey.

My background was in tournaments where you play until you win (or, don't) so I'm still learning the ropes at these sit-and-go cash games-- and for the most part I think I've been doing it right with a little hiccup today. As far as wins, I tend to count how long I should stay by "rounds of the button". If nothing hits for 2 rounds, I walk.

Would love to sit for an 8-10 hour shift but I'm also a single mom and the little humans take priority, so 3-4 hours tends to be my limit for "mommy" playtime.
I wouldn't play less than 3 hours if possible. I wouldn't mention unless others bring it up. They have given you a break since you are a woman. The older guys try to be nice to the ladies and the young guys are scared to talk to women. As far as the button goes it should be moving past you at least twice in an hour. I wouldn't waste time sitting down if I am just going to leave in two orbits.
 
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Intuition seems to me an important factor, analyzing situations and making decisions based on this is a strength. (Cold mind)

On the other hand I really like that you self-analyze and be critical of yourself, this will make you grow a lot as a professional. :D

Thank you, that's what I'm hoping for! :D
 
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I wouldn't play less than 3 hours if possible. I wouldn't mention unless others bring it up. They have given you a break since you are a woman. The older guys try to be nice to the ladies and the young guys are scared to talk to women. As far as the button goes it should be moving past you at least twice in an hour. I wouldn't waste time sitting down if I am just going to leave in two orbits.

Oh no, I mean if I'm getting all crap cards and nothing playable in 2 rounds (which is about an hour) then I won't stick around at that table. Obviously I'm not expecting winning or even playable cards every hand, but a girl can only take so many 5-2os and 6-9 before that "flight" instinct kicks in lol

I wouldn't sit at any table less than an hour, but with no action I won't waste more than an hour (and a half) at a table. Maybe because of my limits. But the kiddos go back to school next week so I'll have a little longer ;)

On a related note, and I did think about starting a thread on the whole "being a woman" thing... I don't see any difference in how I'm treated at the table, and I appreciate that because I wouldn't want any special treatment.

Except maybe to underestimate me :D

Seriously though, nobody's "taken it easy on me" or anything, nor made me feel out of place. It is a shame to look up "professional female poker players" and see mostly lists of who's more attractive, but whatever lol
 
firstcrack

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Sounds like you've found your answer. This is good. I'm curious, though. How did you come to learn that your actions were frowned upon, if I may ask?
 
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Sounds like you've found your answer. This is good. I'm curious, though. How did you come to learn that your actions were frowned upon, if I may ask?

I googled "removing chips from a poker table". (or something along those lines). Honestly, just reading/saying those words sounds like a no brainer lol. I wasn't exactly taking chips out of play, but in the future they will stay out of my rack and on the table until I'm done for the day.

I swear there's a new lesson in this everyday for me! Just the other day I was working out why I get all tilted or frustrated about muscle tables and LAG big stackers pushing everyone out. More importantly, how to "deal" with that.

Is it just me but is there more to poker than just poker? Shit I'm overtired lol
 
firstcrack

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I googled "removing chips from a poker table". (or something along those lines). Honestly, just reading/saying those words sounds like a no brainer lol. I wasn't exactly taking chips out of play, but in the future they will stay out of my rack and on the table until I'm done for the day.

I swear there's a new lesson in this everyday for me! Just the other day I was working out why I get all tilted or frustrated about muscle tables and LAG big stackers pushing everyone out. More importantly, how to "deal" with that.

Is it just me but is there more to poker than just poker? Shit I'm overtired lol

I see. I was wondering if maybe you might have had a confrontation at the table, or something like that. I'm glad you were able to figure it out on your own, but smart to ask the question here, though. Even though you were wanting to know how to delete it maybe someone else can learn from it.
 
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I see. I was wondering if maybe you might have had a confrontation at the table, or something like that. I'm glad you were able to figure it out on your own, but smart to ask the question here, though. Even though you were wanting to know how to delete it maybe someone else can learn from it.

Yeah, nobody at the table noticed... or if they did, they didn't say anything. (Which could be worse, because I don't want to be seen poorly there.)

I had a nagging feeling though that it was unethical to pull chips from the table to "protect" bankroll, and now I know.
 
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Lady

I always look the ladies up at the table. I'm always targeting them if I get a chance, most I have seen have been somewhat less skilled. But on the flip side I go after anyone I feel is less skilled.
I wouldn't say that taking "your chips" off the table is unethical but it is looked down upon. The one time I did it I stood up, took a sit-n-go buy-in and gave it my then girlfriend so she cld buy-in. When I sit down the player to my right leans in and says "you're not suppose to take chips off the table". I knew this but I didn't care cause I didn't have any extra money on me and I was running over the table. Some places might kick in my teeth but most casinos won't do anything That I know of. The dealer said nothing when I do it and that's always the one I look to for right or wrong. Not the table "captains". But honestly in ten years I've been playing that is the only time I've done it. Now ask me about self dealing In home/bar tournaments and I'll tell how I messed up and covered it up.
 
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Is rat holing a bad idea in general? When would one not consider it a breach of etiquette? Ik online poker has a rat hole cooldown, do some casinos prohibit it or does it just irk people?
 
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Is rat holing a bad idea in general? When would one not consider it a breach of etiquette? Ik online poker has a rat hole cooldown, do some casinos prohibit it or does it just irk people?



Having learned what rat holing is, I'd have to say it is. It is a bad idea to intentionally hide or remove money from gameplay.

My original strategy of hitting my goal, sitting for 2 rounds of the button and staying out of aggressive plays (unless you don't mind hitting a cooler) is more ethical. Also, for the record, what i had done wasn't actually intentional, I was planning on leaving but got sucked into a few more hands after putting most of my chips in the rack. I think since nobody noticed/said anything I just went with it and won more playing only what was on the table.

It might not seem like a big deal but there was one point (last hand, I had to go) where I called an "all in" but only with what was on the table. That is a HARD no.
 
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As others said this is considered rat holing. It's generally frowned upon.

At my local card room (which is high volume and pretty well regarded), you can not remove chips from the table during play. You can use them to tip staff (waitresses, dealers, chip runners) off your stack but if the chips are on the table and you "rack them" the rack has to remain on the table rail (some dealers actually insist that in this instance the rack is placed so that one of the short ends touches the felt). The entire rack can't be on the felt, and if you're dealt in a hand at least a stack of chips has to be on the felt with the rack clearly visible if you have chips in it that you removed from play.

I've seen players ask the dealer when a racked player is in the hand if those chips play, and the response is always "yes."

I've seen some minor confrontations over this, nothing too over the top, but definitely some heated debate about this. Every time the dealer has upheld the thinking that the chips play even if you rack them from your on table stack.

And if you pocket them, you'll be told you can not do that. I've also seen players called out for trying to "top off" their stack above the max buy in using high denomination chips.

Someone mentioned cool downs. Most casinos do have cool downs. Mine, you can leave a table with all the chips but have to wait at least 30 minutes before returning to that table. You can re-list for another table though. Also if a table breaks, you're able to bring your entire stack you had in play to a new table, but aren't required to bring more than the minimum to the new table.

If you're trying to protect winnings then just leave the table and come back later.
 
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Another update-- my strategy/mindset has evolved. This doesn't work for everyone but the way I play, if I'm ready to lose $200 then I only buy in with $100 and start off short stacking.

I know this sounds silly but it works for me and the way I play, especially against LAG chip leaders 3 betting to dominate the table. I don't play scared money but short stacking gives off the impression that I'm easy to scare off. Following this approach I've managed to double, triple, and quadruple the buying in just 1 or 2 hands.

Yes, sure, it "could be more if I bought in with more" but going back to the mindset thing... I'd rather get knocked out $100 and buy back in than get knocked out at my max limit for the day.
 
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There are a lot of advantages to short stacking. You'll find a lot of very profitable squeeze situations where someone opens, a few people call with weak hands and then you can comfortably push all in with a strong but non nut hand figuring that most of the time you will be sort of 50/50 against the initial raiser but getting 2:1 on your money because of all the callers. So playing short can allow you to take some more aggressive plays with medium strength hands without worrying too much about running into a monster. And a lot of the time people are more willing to pay you off with something marginal because you are somewhat shorter stacked. Plus on the days when you are playing your A game and the table is really soft then you often get deep stacked organically by winning pots. So you end up playing deeper in optimal conditions and when things are going poorly you have less money on the table.
 
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There are a lot of advantages to short stacking. You'll find a lot of very profitable squeeze situations where someone opens, a few people call with weak hands and then you can comfortably push all in with a strong but non nut hand figuring that most of the time you will be sort of 50/50 against the initial raiser but getting 2:1 on your money because of all the callers. So playing short can allow you to take some more aggressive plays with medium strength hands without worrying too much about running into a monster. And a lot of the time people are more willing to pay you off with something marginal because you are somewhat shorter stacked. Plus on the days when you are playing your A game and the table is really soft then you often get deep stacked organically by winning pots. So you end up playing deeper in optimal conditions and when things are going poorly you have less money on the table.



Yes! I'm finding so many benefits and definitely think short stacking is part of the best strategy. *for me* (because I know many will disagree) :)
 
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Wow crazy no one even begins to mention that Going South or Rat Holing is actually against the rules...not just frowned upon. You can get kicked out of most card rooms. Its way bad and basically cheating.
 
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Wow crazy no one even begins to mention that Going South or Rat Holing is actually against the rules...not just frowned upon. You can get kicked out of most card rooms. Its way bad and basically cheating.

That has been said and clarified. I did tell the cardroom manager (the next day) what I'd done and explained how it was intentional and wouldn't happen again. As mentioned earlier I wish I could just delete this post lol, but I suppose it's good to leave up so nobody else makes the same mistake!
 
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