Calling station type fish

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CaptainKout

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**I'll post cliffnotes below for those that don't like "wall of text" formatting**

I'm seriously struggling with one of the most basic poker concepts and I could use some help thinking through it.

When you are playing calling station type fish should you be playing more or less hands? I already had a thread about fit/fold fish(weak tight or weak loose if we're lucky) who will only call if they hit a big pair and it makes sense to iso them with a huge range and take their money on the flop. However a slightly different breed of fish, the calling station fish, who will go to the river hoping for a backdoor flush or call three streets with pocket deuces and no straight or flush draws (which hit a set on the river to my dismay) are more difficult. These are the same ones who limp with everything so I end up value betting myself with AJ for three streets against their AK(they'll call with mid/bottom pair so I keep betting my top pair.)

First and most obvious problem is that I'm overplaying the top pair hands and I know that, I'm working on it. Next tho, is that they will call down forever so my weaker made hands now have value to be gathered, right? But how much should I be betting these hands? Its happened a lot that my K10 runs into KQ which confounds me because they limped in the cutoff!! Are tp weak kicker hands just calling hands or get to the showdown as cheaply as possible type hands? What if the board has draws, then do I punish the draws or is it more likely that I am value betting myself like I said before?

When it comes to opening hands, since they have no fold equity I want hands that hit flops well, typical stuff. But I can hit a monster and take them for all their worth whenever I do so it might be worth playing some speculative hands if they have a full stack(when they are short-stacked obviously stick to nitty range). But then is raising with my spec hands worth it?

What about raise sizing, if they'll call a big raise should I make a huge raise with my KJ-AK(workhorse drawing hands) which are likely solid agaisnt their range but still drawing hands at the moment? What about AA-1010? My thought is that these are made hands so everything is a valuebet which makes me think bigger is better. But I can't take value from them if they aren't in the hand so should I keep it smaller so they call with their 107o and give me three streets with mid pair?

What about multiway? Say a nit raises and I can take him off the hand 60%(wicked high) of the time with a 3bet but the station in the bb isn't likely to stay in the hand. The nit won't play past the flop unless he's hit something his top pair or occasional set and the station will stay in no matter what. I know that even aces aren't that strong multiway but they're a lot stronger against nits who won't be making weird straights or anything and my real desire is to take the station to value town.

I watch a lot of videos on DTB and all the time they say things like "I could 3bet here but theres a fish in the blinds so . . . .(and tail off)" then 3 bet anyways. What are they thinking? I should probably ask them directly but cc is my go to forum.
 
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CaptainKout

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Cliffnotes:

Questions:
-What to do about calling station fish?
-Open tighter or looser?
-More aggressive or less with non-primo made hands? Tp weakish kicker
--limp call preflop could still be AK
-I guess I should be asking what is a calling stations typical limp call range?
-Bigger or smaller preflop raises?
-Multiway, should I keep them in the pot or make raises?
 
JDAWG5

JDAWG5

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Narrow your range and Value bet the **** out of your good hands.
 
jaxpaboo

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Don't bluff a calling station, but definately bet for value more often than not. I will value bet my Top pair medium pair against a calling station on the river.
 
JDAWG5

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Don't bluff a calling station, but definately bet for value more often than not. I will value bet my Top pair medium pair against a calling station on the river.

This is a great point.
 
duggs

duggs

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Narrow your range and Value bet the **** out of your good hands.

wtf? widen your value range in every pre and postflop spot, remove your bluff range, bet/fold a hell of alot wider
 
JDAWG5

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wtf? widen your value range in every pre and postflop spot, remove your bluff range, bet/fold a hell of alot wider


So bet more marginal hands for value because the other guys probably have horrible cards?
 
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Another spot I find myself in against these guys, is making two streets of what I think are value bets and facing a big bet on the river. After making a couple laydowns on the river, I find myself thinking I probably should have checked the turn to keep the pot small so I can call these river bets down. Or checked the flop and bet the turn. Fish seem to get aggressive on the river so I want to be calling down more often then against others. Which is exactly what I try to do against people who value bet too much. Should I just assume that I'm getting about the right odds to call off? Or is this essentially bet-folding?
 
duggs

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Another spot I find myself in against these guys, is making two streets of what I think are value bets and facing a big bet on the river. After making a couple laydowns on the river, I find myself thinking I probably should have checked the turn to keep the pot small so I can call these river bets down. Or checked the flop and bet the turn. Fish seem to get aggressive on the river so I want to be calling down more often then against others. Which is exactly what I try to do against people who value bet too much. Should I just assume that I'm getting about the right odds to call off? Or is this essentially bet-folding?

bet/fold against loose passive is the nuts
 
Arjonius

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Another spot I find myself in against these guys, is making two streets of what I think are value bets and facing a big bet on the river. After making a couple laydowns on the river, I find myself thinking I probably should have checked the turn to keep the pot small so I can call these river bets down. Or checked the flop and bet the turn. Fish seem to get aggressive on the river so I want to be calling down more often then against others. Which is exactly what I try to do against people who value bet too much. Should I just assume that I'm getting about the right odds to call off? Or is this essentially bet-folding?
All calling stations are not the same. So for example, you can value bet something like second pair more often vs one who tends to call with any pair than vs one whose calling range is stronger.

They can also differ in terms of how many streets they'll call with certain types of hands. For instance, some will call one street with any pair, but only call a second street with at least top pair. So, when this type of player calls your second barrel, it clearly narrows the range you can profitably 3-barrel.
 
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Calling stations rarely raise so I like to isolate with good hands and limp behind late to play "hit to win" with speculative hands. I rarely bet less than top pair on the turn or river if they have called the flop. If they raise at any point I need to have a very strong hand to continue.
 
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Avoid FPS - Fancy Play Syndrome.
Don't think too many levels deep - they aren't and you will only fool yourself with your "smart" plays.

Have a guy in our monthly game who personifies the loose, passive calling station. If he utters the word "raise", I'm mucking quickly without a monster. He STRONGLY believes his hand is best if he raises. (I've made bad lay downs where he incorrectly thought his hand was good, but that is a rare exception)

Also keep in mind, that he doesnt play or think like you. He can be on the button with AK and just call when there are a couple of limps in front of him. If you have a mid-Ace in the blinds and hit one on the flop, don't assume you aren't out kicked. Value bet yes. But I try not to get too crazy without having more than a pair.

Honestly, I find him frustrating to play against, but that is because the pain of losing w AK to K6 when he inexplicably calls a sizable re-raise pre-flop after limping is hard to forget. Over the long term, you love bad calls like that. But the "how the hell do you call that bet w K6o" memories suck!
 
JDAWG5

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Avoid FPS - Fancy Play Syndrome.
Don't think too many levels deep - they aren't and you will only fool yourself with your "smart" plays.

Have a guy in our monthly game who personifies the loose, passive calling station. If he utters the word "raise", I'm mucking quickly without a monster. He STRONGLY believes his hand is best if he raises. (I've made bad lay downs where he incorrectly thought his hand was good, but that is a rare exception)

Also keep in mind, that he doesnt play or think like you. He can be on the button with AK and just call when there are a couple of limps in front of him. If you have a mid-Ace in the blinds and hit one on the flop, don't assume you aren't out kicked. Value bet yes. But I try not to get too crazy without having more than a pair.

Honestly, I find him frustrating to play against, but that is because the pain of losing w AK to K6 when he inexplicably calls a sizable re-raise pre-flop after limping is hard to forget. Over the long term, you love bad calls like that. But the "how the hell do you call that bet w K6o" memories suck!

I experience literally everything you just described in my home game as well.
 
duggs

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Avoid FPS - Fancy Play Syndrome.
Don't think too many levels deep - they aren't and you will only fool yourself with your "smart" plays.

Have a guy in our monthly game who personifies the loose, passive calling station. If he utters the word "raise", I'm mucking quickly without a monster. He STRONGLY believes his hand is best if he raises. (I've made bad lay downs where he incorrectly thought his hand was good, but that is a rare exception)

Also keep in mind, that he doesnt play or think like you. He can be on the button with AK and just call when there are a couple of limps in front of him. If you have a mid-Ace in the blinds and hit one on the flop, don't assume you aren't out kicked. Value bet yes. But I try not to get too crazy without having more than a pair.

Honestly, I find him frustrating to play against, but that is because the pain of losing w AK to K6 when he inexplicably calls a sizable re-raise pre-flop after limping is hard to forget. Over the long term, you love bad calls like that. But the "how the hell do you call that bet w K6o" memories suck!

I dont understand why you would pot control vs a wide passive range,

AQo on a A57 board, assuming he calls all Ax and some random middle pocket pairs, he will call your flop bet with AK A5 A7 57 55 77 AA (8+6+6+9+3+3+1) combos (that beat us)

as well as AJ A10-8 A6 A4-2 (8+24+8+24) combos (that we beat), plus he probably flats alot of stupid middle pair aswell so 88-JJ all call 2-3 streets (18 more combos we beat)

that not even counting the times he calls with 7x 5x and 86 46 43 23 (heaps and heaps and heaps of combos we beat) etc

, so this becomes a very clear spot to vbet thinly. so we can definitely vbet multiple streets when we flop single pair hands.

if anything this is the ideal opponent to vbet single pair hands against because tight player are more likely to fold to multiple bets with worse so its hard to get value.
 
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CaptainKout

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Don't worry. I almost never stop betting until the bastard checkraises me which means I need to bet fold a lot more. But sometimes they feel strong enough with A8 to checkraise so once in a while I feel obligated to call them down. Then other times they have KK and decide that "you couldn't possibly have an ace" or "I never win with KK so I'm gonna force him off that Ace by shoving 140bb." There is a lot of fish psychology that doesn't make sense. It just hurts to get my tptk cracked after a mondo three bet when they call with 75o. Obviously it doesn't happen a lot but if 5 people at a table are playing 60% of hands and they all want to see the flop, then it will happen a lot more. Today and yesterday i shit you not, there were more than one 4 way 4bet pots in my session and I'm pretty certain I got the worst of it in those instances. Ridiculous. But we all know that even AA doesn't fair well in multiway pots.
 
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Rickman

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I dont understand why you would pot control vs a wide passive range,

AQo on a A57 board, assuming he calls all Ax and some random middle pocket pairs, he will call your flop bet with AK A5 A7 57 55 77 AA (8+6+6+9+3+3+1) combos (that beat us)

as well as AJ A10-8 A6 A4-2 (8+24+8+24) combos (that we beat), plus he probably flats alot of stupid middle pair aswell so 88-JJ all call 2-3 streets (18 more combos we beat)

that not even counting the times he calls with 7x 5x and 86 46 43 23 (heaps and heaps and heaps of combos we beat) etc

, so this becomes a very clear spot to vbet thinly. so we can definitely vbet multiple streets when we flop single pair hands.

if anything this is the ideal opponent to vbet single pair hands against because tight player are more likely to fold to multiple bets with worse so its hard to get value.
Agree with your take. Definitely still vbet against this villain. I'm just saying against him it is hard to put him on a hand unless he raises. So, I typically bet 2-3 streets, but no more than half pot bets with only top pair. Reading my own words, Im probably losing value long term by being too concerned about the times he plays his good hands passively. Thanks for making me think about this situation more.
 
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CaptainKout

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Something I never asked about that I probably should have. When you say widen your bet-fold range, whats in your bet-call range?

Can you bet-call with something like a tp with a flush draw on the flop? what about if the check-raise comes on the turn and you're still drawing? Probably just a pot odds problem and I guess a lot of times you'll get a free card anyways since they're passive. I'm really worried about folding to an AJ when I've got AK because fish seem to think pair of Aces with 9+ kicker is the nuts which leaves a ton of combinations that I crush. If they're aggro they'll def stack off with A9+ on an ace high board and passives might take a stand with AJ+. Since I play really aggressively they might chose a hand like this to fight back with. If its total combinations then there are way more of these hands than sets but plenty of two pairs I guess. Arg! Can I call the flop check-raise and fold to turn bet? Calling a turn c-bet would almost certainly leave me committed so I'd rather come over the top.
 
sam1chips

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Absolutely bet your good hands aggressively. However, as the turn and river peel off, just keep in mind that they could very well be draw hunting...if a third heart turns up on the board, or an 8 joins the A67 flop, be weary.
 
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