Calling Range for an Open Shove

So you're sitting down at a ring game, just bought in and sitting on ~100 big blinds. You're in the big blind. UTG flat shoves it all in, he's got you covered. It's folded around to you. What range are you calling with here? I'm assuming AA and KK, do you call with AK here? QQ? JJ? TT? This is your first hand at the table so no reads on them. Also assume you are playing within your bankroll, so no "well you don't want to be losing all that money first hand" comments. You can afford to lose a pot but you also want to make the best decision that nets you the best ev.

You're saying that they open shove for 100bbs? I don't think there are too may people who do this with truly premium hands? I'd think I'd likely call with AA,KK,QQ,AK. Adding JJ and 1010 might be profitable as well as I just can't see big hands pushing a full stack UTG.

cant really see someone making this type of play with a big hand unless they are really donkish which in most cases is not the case
it might be a tilt shove or some weekend gambler so i think a good range here would be AA,KK,QQ AND AK,,,,,, JJ & 10 10 might be a bit of a stretch but i might call depending on if i feel lucky

If I'm gonna call such a huge bet when I'm only in for 1 BB I'm gonna be sure I am a solid favorite so no way I'd call with AK JJ or 10 10, I'd only call with AA KK or QQ. Who knows what an idiot like that may be thinking, if hes dumb enough to do that with a 97 os hes probably dumb enough to do it with KK.

I'd put them on AK, and call with AA or KK...

NoWuckingFurries said:

I'd put them on AK, and call with AA or KK...

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lol i hope thisis a joke ...how could you put him on that with no previos infoor anything, but your calling strategy is looking good lol....

at 10max probably TT+, AK
at 200max probably QQ+, AK

This is a silly thread.

1. You've just sat down.
2. What cards DO you actually have?
3. If you don't have AA or KK here. You might as well fold. You don't have any information of the table, the players, nothing.

Unless you have AA or KK (Even KK here might be a slight bit loose) then it's an insta fold.

QQ,JJ,TT are not all in calling hands pre-flop in a game when you don't know anything about the table. Playing these types of hands requires a lot of studying throughout the game and if/when you come to this kind of juncture.

BF

Assuming I have no history against the guiy, I'd take a few things into consideration.
1) Villain's chip stack.
2) Level of the game ($5 buy in, $25, $100?)
3) Villain's position.

Since his chip stack exceeded the maximum buy in (he had us covered) I'd tend to give him more credit. This is a big reason to fold.

I find the lowest micro limits to be pretty nitty (if they have chips), so the $.01/$.02 would generally mean that he has A/A-Q/Q. At slightly higher levels there's more gamble, so lower pairs and A/K become more likely (at $25 I'd be twice as likely to call compated to $.01/$.02). It's still not good enough to play for my entire stack though. Folding is cheap. Being wrong is expensive. And if he's playing poorly, I should have other opportunities to take his chips.

Making a big move like that UTG suggest strength as well. Yet a third reason to fold.

Conclusion: Most of the time I'd fold Queens in this position. If I had Kings I'd call, and brace myself for the pain.

After folding I'd spend the next twenty minutes trying to figure out why he best so much if he really did have a good hand. Maybe he just hates playing big pairs post flop because he "always" gets sucked out.

Black_Fox said:

This is a silly thread.

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i guess poker theory is silly then

vanquish said:

i guess poker theory is silly then

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Completely blown out of proportion.

I meant the question that was asked, it was silly. It's a no brainer - come on, don't try and get all witty man.

Surely, if you've just sat down at a table and someone shoves all in - you are going to fold unless you've got anything barring Aces (maybe Kings).

I wasn't trying to be patronising. Just telling it like it is.

BF

Id Call with mainly Only AA or KK maybe QQ but other than that I would most likely fold I unless I got a read. I would rather give him the 1 BB and let me try to out play him later.

Black_Fox said:

Surely, if you've just sat down at a table and someone shoves all in - you are going to fold unless you've got anything barring Aces (maybe Kings).

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i dont agree. thats why theres a thread about it. some people are going to think one thing and others will think something else, and there can be discussion about it. therefore the thread is not silly, and telling it like it is doesn't work in this discussion.

sry

If you just sat down, why are you playing any hand at all? I could offer the range includes 23, and villain is welcoming you to the table. I have noticed that newbies to a table who don't sit and watch, get absolutely no respect. Seen that so many times its sick.

I generally sit out at least an orbit, maybe more (they go fast enough), giving me plenty of time to do a couple of things;

1- see who is doing what, and to whom they might be doing it to!
2- Let the psychological notion that I've been at this table a while slowly sink in. Even when my status shows 'sitting out', the effect of me sitting there, and maybe chatting, is fairly significant. Shortly they might see me as the ROCK, only playing great hands.

So, back to the question. I'm thinking the range is huge, and it is a welcome party.

I agree dj, his range is huge (I don't know about 23 but I'm definitely not thinking it's only AA/KK/AK). I know if I'm in good position with an early poster I'll very often raise with A2Cs to take the blinds and the free money that Mr./Mrs. Impatient left on the table.

SavagePenguin said:

Assuming I have no history against the guiy, I'd take a few things into consideration.
1) Villain's chip stack.
2) Level of the game ($5 buy in, $25, $100?)
3) Villain's position.

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I answered #1 and #3, #1 is he has you covered. If you are asking image-wise, say he has 101 BBs. #3 is he is UTG. For #2 let's just say it's 50nl.

SavagePenguin said:

Conclusion: Most of the time I'd fold Queens in this position. If I had Kings I'd call, and brace myself for the pain.

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Do you honestly think he has AA enough times to even think about it with KK? Also with QQ, is KK or AA shoving UTG a lot? Not a rhetorical question, I'd honestly like to look at this more. I see people over-shoving AK a lot, although I have yet to see a flat shove with AK.

ok, as to why I asked this, mainly 2 reasons:

1. This is what sparked my interest, this exact thing happened. UTG literally opened shove with a little over a full buy-in. This was my first hand and I had JJ in the BB. I actually considered calling before folding it. He didn't show. I'm pretty sure with QQ that'd be a snap call, it's just I think we're seeing too many AK and AQ and not enough hands we beat here to justify a call with JJ. It's just hard to believe he'd have a hand like AA or even KK (although KK is far more likely simply because it could be someone frustrated that their KK always seems to run into an A on the flop).

2. Strategy-wise I was trying to see how an open shove with AA would work. With a calling range we can calculate the ev for this although our ev when we simply play it normally would be tough to figure out, maybe we could use real data for that.

Add to my other post. It could well be that this bully is, again, welcoming you to the table AND drilling into your image of him that he is in charge. He could also have the deepest stack in reserves of anyone at the table.

So stakes, and stakes play less importance here than the fact that you just sat down, and if this isn't the first hand you're playing, according to OP, it is within a very few of the first hands you're playing.

Fold with anything less than dream cards (whatever those are for you).

Well remember he raised UTG so he isn't targeting you.

zachvac said:

Well remember he raised UTG so he isn't targeting you.

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That isn't necessarily True, he may have reads that tell him everyone will fold to an open shove at the table except for you who are the unknown.

NoWuckingFurries said:

I'd put them on AK, and call with AA or KK...

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KingCurtis said:

lol i hope thisis a joke ...how could you put him on that with no previos infoor anything, but your calling strategy is looking good lol....

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Black_Fox said:

Unless you have AA or KK (Even KK here might be a slight bit loose) then it's an insta fold.

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SavagePenguin said:

Conclusion: Most of the time I'd fold Queens in this position. If I had Kings I'd call, and brace myself for the pain.

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Ldpokercj5 said:

Id Call with mainly Only AA or KK maybe QQ but other than that I would most likely fold I unless I got a read. I would rather give him the 1 BB and let me try to out play him later.

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No, KC, I wasn't joking!

huh, ingame I fold all barring AA/KK.

its very difficult with no reads. Honestly I have no idea what range has the highest ev so im stickin to super premiums.

My vote is for folding anything besides KK or AA.

The stakes really make a difference here too. In the low stakes you can often shove with AA or KK and get called by a wide variety of hands.