calling 90% after getting open shoved on OTF after flatting a 4b (yeah i flat 4bs)

JCgrind

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ive found myself in this spot on the flop at least once per day- called a 4b from the blinds, check the flop which has 1 or 2 overs, and get shoved on from anywere between around pot to x2 pot.

i recently decided to start calling these virtually every single time (i have to have been super active 3bing from the blinds on that table). quite literally taking the fish line of thought process "nah hes FOS, he has to be bluffing... i put him on AK" lol. reasoning behind this being that my opponents dont value bet big hands like this, and they expect me to either have a set and call (unlikely) or have nothing and fold (very likely). so this is just some big stupid levelling game.

like i said, ive made this call in similar spots (funnily enough ive pretty much always had 88 too) and ive been right every siiiiiiingle time bar once- and that one time villain was a fish and turned out to be value shoving aces.

does anyone have any kind of opinion on these spots?

fwiw, 820 hands on villain. hes a std 25NL reg. 19/17, opens 58% of buttons. folds to 3bs 69%, 4bs 19%, and that gives him a 4b range of 3.2%

poker stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players - View hand 1919171
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $26.92
Hero (SB): $25.45
BB: $32.51
CO: $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with 8
heart.gif
8
diamond.gif

1 fold, BTN raises to $0.61, Hero raises to $2.25, 1 fold, BTN raises to $5.50, Hero calls $3.25

Flop: ($11.25) 5
club.gif
J
heart.gif
9
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $21.42 all in, Hero calls $19.95 all in

Turn: ($51.15) 7
spade.gif
(2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($51.15) T
club.gif
(2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $51.15
BTN mucks A
club.gif
Q
diamond.gif

Hero shows 8
heart.gif
8
diamond.gif
(a straight, Seven to Jack)
Hero wins $50.15
(Rake: $1.00)
 
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Pascal-lf

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hate it. you're calling a 4bet OOP with no initiative.

if they bet small, you have to fold pretty much every flop.

if they shove, they've always got great equity against you (2 overs) or they could have TT/JJ/QQ on a Kxx board and you've got terrible equity. or they could have aces.
 
JCgrind

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i was more referring to what to do when awkwardly open shoved on like that OTF. i know everyone will and expect everyone to hate the preflop lol, not sure about the flop call thoguh

also, isnt my equity like 70% here? thats not too shabby at all imo (if im right). board has to be J high at highest and the J or T being the only paint card for me to snap
 
micalupagoo

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but hes been right almost every time,
I may have to try it, lol
(after my nutz grow a little), im sure i fold too many winners (id have folded pre- especially after the reraise)
so much more aggression now it seems, so many overbets and shoves
but whatever works for you tho...
 
JCgrind

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thats the thing.. after pulling this stupidity for a week, i havent had a single reg level me by 4bing a monster then open shoving the flop. they just wont do it, too scared ill fold and theyll lose value. the day i do get some smartass reg see what im doing and play AA like this ill reconsider.

i remember like a year ago at 25NL people would open shove flops with overpairs because theyd always get called by TP. i guess people realised this and stopped callign TP, so now people are doing it as a bluff?

pretty funny though that they obv think "the more money i put in, the more likely he is to fold" when in actual fact for me its the exact opposite. he bets 5.50/6 on the flop and i snapfold lol
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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nothing really to contribute to the thread, subbing though
 
JCgrind

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i should also point out that im not even necessarily saying that what im doing is good... i just think its interesting

EDIT: oh ye and just to clarify since we had that 99 thread, i only 3b 88 here cos BB was a superfish and i didnt want him coming along too. 88 good OOP HU, not multi lol. but thats an argument for another thread
 
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WVHillbilly

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So 3betting from the blinds with 99 = HORRIBLE but 3betting from the blinds with 88 AND calling a 4bet = GOOD?????????
 
JCgrind

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So 3betting from the blinds with 99 = HORRIBLE but 3betting from the blinds with 88 AND calling a 4bet = GOOD?????????

I'm so glad I edited my last post before you posted. In this case IMO yes, bc I didn't close the action and couldn't expect a fold from BB if I flatted, so it was necessary to iso.

On a completely unrelated note, I do fold to 4bs a decent amount (not as much as i should in blind battle spots though, but considering I 3b pretty much all off suit non ace paint, 22-66, A2-A9s, 45s-9Ts, 57s-J9s and the occasional total airball I am still folding to 4bs a lot). I have a hunch that a lot of HUD players incorrectly Don't 4b me with a big hand because they expect a fold- since I have such a massively wide 3b stat and my stats do indicate a reasonable fold vs 4b. This is just something else interesting I think and I have absolutely no evidence to back my hunch. just kinda thought about this because it's what I'd do with a big hand vs a guy 3bing wide in a spot where his range is extra wide, and decided that I was kinda the perfect candidate to not 4b monsters against.

I say this because if people aren't 4bing me with their monsters (obv some do, but I feel I get flatted against a lot), i will then have the initiative and dodge the whole "check to the raiser, oh he shoved, snapcall" thing
 
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acky100

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Are you 3betting 88 to isolate the huge whale to ure left? If so thats pretty standard, maybe 88 is a bit looser than most guys would, but its still for clear value, i don't like it if you're 3betting to isolate btn though.

You sound like you are going to level yourself an awful lot, if you think the guy is really unbalanced at 4betting here though then calling is fine if you think he will spew postflop, otherwise i'd just 5bet ship it.
 
Pascal-lf

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i should also point out that im not even necessarily saying that what im doing is good... i just think its interesting

EDIT: oh ye and just to clarify since we had that 99 thread, i only 3b 88 here cos BB was a superfish and i didnt want him coming along too. 88 good OOP HU, not multi lol. but thats an argument for another thread

What? If BB is a superfish of course we want him coming along, we're doing everything we can to play as many pots with him as possible!
 
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I don;t like it but I could see myself doing stuff like this cuz I spew tons.
 
JOEBOB69

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You sound like you are going to level yourself an awful lot, if you think the guy is really unbalanced at 4betting here though then calling is fine if you think he will spew postflop, otherwise i'd just 5bet ship it.

^this
 
JCgrind

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Are you 3betting 88 to isolate the huge whale to ure left? If so thats pretty standard, maybe 88 is a bit looser than most guys would, but its still for clear value, i don't like it if you're 3betting to isolate btn though.

You sound like you are going to level yourself an awful lot, if you think the guy is really unbalanced at 4betting here though then calling is fine if you think he will spew postflop, otherwise i'd just 5bet ship it.

nah i was doing it to iso BTN, but thats interesting though.

What? If BB is a superfish of course we want him coming along, we're doing everything we can to play as many pots with him as possible!

i just dont wanna have to play for sets which is effectively what im doing when i call 88 knowing ill see a flop 3 handed in the worst postion
 
LuckyChippy

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Nice brag. PF still looks pretty shitty though.
 
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ddeely1

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Like most people here I am not so crazy about the preflop line you take. If you are planning on 5bet jamming that is one thing, but it seems a little crazy to flat 88oop there and then play a flop. Are you just assuming he has AQ or AK every single time?
 
hackmeplz

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I flat 4-bets more than anyone but 88 is one of the worst possible hands you can flat here with. If you can profitably flat it it's almost definitely worth it to shove whereas you can call all your broadway shit.
 
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I am not sure about the line, but I would guess the button is expecting your range for calling his 4 bet is skewed towards big cards and mid pairs, and that your call was weak. After all "why wouldn't you 5bet all in with a BIG pair." The only way their over cards or small pairs can win is to make you fold, so they shove.

I think this is an interesting phenomenon, and would like to know it this continues, or if you are just running into a few idiots.

Obviously, the guy with AA was hoping you had a good pair.
 
JCgrind

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Nice brag. PF still looks pretty shitty though.

Not a brag. Been going on for so long that I got curious about it. Check my cash thread. I'm 160bb/100 for spots where I flatted 4bs after 3bing. 380,000 hand sample

Like most people here I am not so crazy about the preflop line you take. If you are planning on 5bet jamming that is one thing, but it seems a little crazy to flat 88oop there and then play a flop. Are you just assuming he has AQ or AK every single time?

I think he has AA/KK or is 4bing Ax rag or something else super light. I could shove but then I'm owned when he actually has a hand. Or I could flat like I do and put him in a spot to more more money in every time he doesn't have anything- extra bets I wouldn't win if I shoved pre. If I shove pre he's pot committed and is always calling so I'm either 50/50 or totally crushed by a bigger pair, so if I think I'll be able to read them good otf I might as well eval on flop imo
But ye on that flop action I'm putting opponents on A rag high not even AK/AQ

I am not sure about the line, but I would guess the button is expecting your range for calling his 4 bet is skewed towards big cards and mid pairs, and that your call was weak. After all "why wouldn't you 5bet all in with a BIG pair." The only way their over cards or small pairs can win is to make you fold, so they shove.

I think this is an interesting phenomenon, and would like to know it this continues, or if you are just running into a few idiots.

The guys this has happened against are all regs (bar one) whom I have over 1k hands with. Check my thread for continuous results

Obviously, the guy with AA was hoping you had a good pair.

Uhhh obv the guy with AA was thinking omg I have AA and not thinking about my cards at all... Just shoving cos he had the highest pair, like a typical lvl 1 thinker fish
 
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This was terribly played IMO...
1st I don't like your 3bet pre(I think it's a little bigger than usual you could have made it smaller)

2nd When you 3bet so big and then vil 4bets you have to know you're rly behind(even tough you have history on the vil and it's a btn blinds situation)

3rd By flatting pre you're just giving up the pot unless your 8 or a rly good flop comes imo

4rd The push is strange but i can see him doing this with TT,KK,QQ,AJ maybe AA, sets would have played it slowly i guess...

rly spewy from you i guess
 
JCgrind

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This was terribly played IMO...
1st I don't like your 3bet pre(I think it's a little bigger than usual you could have made it smaller)

3b to 9bbs super standard, plus i wanna make it larger anyway cos im OOP.

2nd When you 3bet so big and then vil 4bets you have to know you're rly behind(even tough you have history on the vil and it's a btn blinds situation)

cept i wasnt behind... i was ahead?

3rd By flatting pre you're just giving up the pot unless your 8 or a rly good flop comes imo

cept i didnt hit the 8 and the flop is never going to be good without one

4rd The push is strange but i can see him doing this with TT,KK,QQ,AJ maybe AA, sets would have played it slowly i guess...

overpairs all play it slowly... (unless theyve worked me out and are leveling me)

rly spewy from you i guess

like, i definitely make life hard for myself on the flop by flatting preflop instead of 5b shoving. but if i play it out like this and make the correct decision on the flop, end result is i get it in as a big favourite (~70%) instead of 55% or 20% which is what id be if i shoved pre (villain is never 4b folding). not sure why youre making all these inaccurate assumptions about villain considering ive got a ton of hands history with him and my views on his range are (and were at the time) a whole lot more accurate... :s
 
Raymund2468

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4bet and a flat call? i would likely shove on that spot on pre-flop though,
 
Deco

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Don't 3bet.
Don't call the 4bet.
Don't call the flop
Don't show results.

What? If BB is a superfish of course we want him coming along, we're doing everything we can to play as many pots with him as possible!

Ditto
 
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