C-bet bluffs in and out of position

With $92 I am close to my threshold for moving up to 5NL. I know folk say there’s no difference in quality from 2NL to 5NL, nevertheless when that happens I will make a few adjustments.

1) Lower standard raise from 4BB to 3BB.
2) Lower my c-bet from c. 1.2-1.5 of pot to c. pot size.
3) Play a few more hands like Ax in some positions.
4) And then I should try more bluffs, here comes my question:

Originally on 2NL I was c-bet bluffing only when out of position. I had read in one forum thread that you shouldn’t bluff when in position, because you could choose to check and see another card for free.
But later I read that it was more natural to c-bet bluff when in position, because you have now already seen two tells on the (limping) opponent – ergo he must really have a poor hand.
And this c-bet in position is the only bluff I have used throughout 2NL.

I am now thinking that on 5NL I will c-bet bluff also when out of position, so as a general rule always make a c-bet on flop regardless of the board and position.

Or maybe I should learn to bluff in other situations, what do you recommend?

Hi CistaCista,

I play 5NL 6-max, I have never played 2NL but I can comment on your adjustments based on what I have found at 5NL:
1) 3BB raise is standard for me and is enough to steal the blinds. I mix it up between 3BB and 4BB raises.
2) I c-bet usually 3/4 of the pot (sometimes a little more) and it is enough to take it down most of the time.
3) I avoid anything below AT if unsuited. I will play A8s+ from any position and A2s+ from late position.
4) I c-bet bluff regardless of whether I am in position or not and it works well.

As for bluffing in other situations a 3-bet bluff with something like 55 or 98s can be profitable, especially if someone has limped in behind the original raise.

GL

CistaCista said:

With $92 I am close to my threshold for moving up to 5NL. I know folk say there’s no difference in quality from 2NL to 5NL, nevertheless when that happens I will make a few adjustments.

1) Lower standard raise from 4BB to 3BB.
2) Lower my c-bet from c. 1.2-1.5 of pot to c. pot size.
3) Play a few more hands like Ax in some positions.
4) And then I should try more bluffs, here comes my question:

Originally on 2NL I was c-bet bluffing only when out of position. I had read in one forum thread that you shouldn’t bluff when in position, because you could choose to check and see another card for free.
But later I read that it was more natural to c-bet bluff when in position, because you have now already seen two tells on the (limping) opponent – ergo he must really have a poor hand.
And this c-bet in position is the only bluff I have used throughout 2NL.

I am now thinking that on 5NL I will c-bet bluff also when out of position, so as a general rule always make a c-bet on flop regardless of the board and position.

Or maybe I should learn to bluff in other situations, what do you recommend?

Click to expand...

I recommend doing nothing different than you do at 2nl already. The games are still super super fishy and i dont understand why you are even thinking of making adjustments?

I dont know why you would want to lower your opening raise size, 4x works well at 2,5,10nl and i wouldnt bother changing it until 25nl. You could open 3x on the button though.

I dont understand the lowering your c-bet stuff because i dont understand what you mean by c. 1.2 - 1.5 stuff, Theres no reason to change your c-bet size, something like 60%-70% will be fine, and c-bet more against fish when you have a hand, no-one will realise.

But what i really dont understand is why you're wanting to bluff more?

You might need to read some articles on c-betting. C-betting 100% of the time is a pretty big leak especially if you're doing it on any board in any position.

What kind of stats are you playing at? Anyways just dont change your game because you're changing stakes, good luck!

I think by c. 1.2 - 1.5 he means 120-150% of the pot, which is way too much for a c-bet, especially a c-bet bluff. As you say 60-70% is fine

CistaCista said:

1) Lower standard raise from 4BB to 3BB.
2) Lower my c-bet from c. 1.2-1.5 of pot to c. pot size.
3) Play a few more hands like Ax in some positions.
4) And then I should try more bluffs, here comes my question:

Click to expand...

1. On the button you can open depending on the players in the blinds. With nits you can open 2.2x as they'll fold. When they call or play back you're usually behind so your risking less BB's when you steal. With people who three-bet regularly (not common in 5NL) you should open a bit smaller too, like 2.5x. This means you loose less when you have to fold when they 3b. With people who call too often (say 50%) out of BB or SB you should open 3x or 3.5x. This is because you'll be playing IP against a weaker range and the pot will be bigger. Therefore it's worth stealing. Anywhere else I usually open 3x as standard.
2) Dunno what c. 1.2 is. But c-bet depending on what you think they'll fold. Don't use a sledgehammer when a smaller hammer will do. i.e if a 50% pot bet will take it down, it's preferable to a 90% pot sized bet.
3)Add Axs on the button if your post flop play is ok as you'll be able to steal some hands when you miss as you have position. You must be able to play draws aggressively for Axs to be profitable though.
4) Not really. 5NL doesn't differ from 2NL. If a guy is a calling station, bluff little and value bet lots. If he is tight bluff lots to steal pots. Same as 2NL.

5NL is pretty much the same as 2NL tbh, maybe a little more 3betting from the blinds but thats about it.

acky100 said:

I recommend doing nothing different than you do at 2nl already. The games are still super super fishy and i dont understand why you are even thinking of making adjustments?

I dont know why you would want to lower your opening raise size, 4x works well at 2,5,10nl and i wouldnt bother changing it until 25nl. You could open 3x on the button though.

I dont understand the lowering your c-bet stuff because i dont understand what you mean by c. 1.2 - 1.5 stuff, Theres no reason to change your c-bet size, something like 60%-70% will be fine, and c-bet more against fish when you have a hand, no-one will realise.

But what i really dont understand is why you're wanting to bluff more?

You might need to read some articles on c-betting. C-betting 100% of the time is a pretty big leak especially if you're doing it on any board in any position.

What kind of stats are you playing at? Anyways just dont change your game because you're changing stakes, good luck!

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This is all exactly right. On your c betting are you talking about how often you c bet or what size bet that you make the c bet?

As for how often to c bet Acky has it right. As for size of c bet you want to bet enough that it is a long term error for them to call but small enough that they want to call. I'm not the best at explaining the math, without writing a book but do you understand pot odds and EV clearly? If not do some reading up on it and it will help you understand proper bet sizing.

Also, here is a CC article that might help. https://www.cardschat.com/continuation-betting-poker.php

One more thing. Don't make changes to your game just because you are moving up. Look at it this way: Why are you moving up? Because you have been winning. When you move up, play in the way that has been winning for you. Make adjustments based on what you see once you are playing the higher stake not beforehand.

Also, 2nl and 5nl play almost exactly the same way. Play good starting hands, use position, and value bet them until you wear out your mouse. You don't have to do anything fancy. If you just avoid tilt and obvious mistakes you will crush.

One more thing. DON'T START BLUFFING MORE!! As Stu would say, the number one mistake most of these players make is calling too much. Bluffing calling stations is a huge leak. Of course you want to c bet but if you aren't betting for value on the turn and river then you don't need to be betting at all at 5nl. Its almost never a good idea to fire the 2nd barrel with air at 5nl.

Good luck.

Hi Iam now on my 3rd attempt at crushing the 5NL from moving up from the 2NL.
I have found on pokerstars there is a difference. I am only even at the moment but last 2 times I got smashed so I'm getting somewhere.
My stats and smashing 2NL where something like VPIP 22 PFR 12 I have had to tighten right up on 5NL to about VPIP 17 PFR 12. Also im playing for USD not EUR so the step up is slightly less until I start to get myself crushing these stacks.
I tend to raise 3xBB and 4xBB and like said previously if nits in the blinds even smaller like 2.5 or 2xBB.
I would also C-Bet about 70% of the time allot less in multi pots and when I do it will generally be for 2/3 of the pot sometimes 1/2 pot bet and when the flop is something like AA2 I will only bet about 20% you will be suprised how many people fold thinking you are trying to get a bit extra with an ace. Betting 1/2 or 2/3 pot with flops like that never works on 5NL unless obviously you have the ace.
You will find there are allot less L&A players who are just throwing chips at you for the sake of it cos they have watched some pro bluff. When they are bluffing they have a general idea to represent the hand from the beginning.
Hope you crush 5NL and if you find any adjustments you have had to do, let me know lol.

Just wanted to say that 3-betting 98s is probably bad for all stakes.

CistaCista said:

With $92 I am close to my threshold for moving up to 5NL. I know folk say there’s no difference in quality from 2NL to 5NL, nevertheless when that happens I will make a few adjustments.

1) Lower standard raise from 4BB to 3BB.
2) Lower my c-bet from c. 1.2-1.5 of pot to c. pot size.
3) Play a few more hands like Ax in some positions.
4) And then I should try more bluffs, here comes my question:

Originally on 2NL I was c-bet bluffing only when out of position. I had read in one forum thread that you shouldn’t bluff when in position, because you could choose to check and see another card for free.
But later I read that it was more natural to c-bet bluff when in position, because you have now already seen two tells on the (limping) opponent – ergo he must really have a poor hand.
And this c-bet in position is the only bluff I have used throughout 2NL.

I am now thinking that on 5NL I will c-bet bluff also when out of position, so as a general rule always make a c-bet on flop regardless of the board and position.

Or maybe I should learn to bluff in other situations, what do you recommend?

Click to expand...

I have just one advice. There is a bigger difference between 5NL and 2NL than 10NL and 5 NL. If you have a tracker than first play tight as hell for a while untill you build yourself a nice database to see who is what quite accurately.

CistaCista said:

With $92 I am close to my threshold for moving up to 5NL. I know folk say there’s no difference in quality from 2NL to 5NL, nevertheless when that happens I will make a few adjustments.

1) Lower standard raise from 4BB to 3BB.
Doesnt matter
2) Lower my c-bet from c. 1.2-1.5 of pot to c. pot size.
Depends on position, villian and board texture
3) Play a few more hands like Ax in some positions.
Depends on Villians in front of you and behind you to act
4) And then I should try more bluffs, here comes my question:
Pick spots based on hand ranges and villian tendencies

Originally on 2NL I was c-bet bluffing only when out of position. I had read in one forum thread that you shouldn’t bluff when in position, because you could choose to check and see another card for free.
But later I read that it was more natural to c-bet bluff when in position, because you have now already seen two tells on the (limping) opponent – ergo he must really have a poor hand.
And this c-bet in position is the only bluff I have used throughout 2NL.

I am now thinking that on 5NL I will c-bet bluff also when out of position, so as a general rule always make a c-bet on flop regardless of the board and position.

Or maybe I should learn to bluff in other situations, what do you recommend?

Click to expand...

Hand Reading

Player Dependent/Tendencies
Position
Board Texture

Base your decisions off these not what stake you are playing + Aggression