BTN vs blinds: flatting vs 3betting?

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mottotom27

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I play 10nl full ring and was recently reading "modern small stakes" by Nathan Williams (blackrain79) and came across an interesting section about button vs blinds situations. I'll sometimes post a hand history on cardschat or elsewhere about how i 3bet ATs in the BB vs a BTN open from a reg, and get a lot of replies saying "ATs is a standard flat here".

However the book suggests that you shouldn't really have a flatting range vs a button open and that whenever you have a hand you want to play, you should 3bet. The reasoning the author gave was that he doesn't want to play a pot OOP without initiative, whilst 3betting regains initiative and picks up dead money when villain folds pre. He gave a similar argument for CO vs BTN, stating that button should be 3betting very wide and almost never flatting. The only time he flats is for "balance" against some of the better regs capable of 4betting a lot.

I sometimes hear people say things like "well 3betting just folds out worse hands and keeps in hands that have you beat, so flatting has more value" yet they are forgetting that flatting profitably requires you to outplay your opponent, which is hard to do without the lead in the hand especially OOP. Some micro stakes players have tried to pull this off, and end up attempting fancy plays like check/raise bluffing to try and outplay their opponents, and end up just burning money.

So what do you guys think? Do you think flatting in the blinds is wise vs a LP open? What about in the BTN vs CO?
 
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flatting doesn't require you to outplay anyone? flatting is also cheaper, and initiative is very very overrated and theoretically irrelevant.
 
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As for being in the blinds vs a BTN open I suppose it really depends on who is raising and what his fold to 3-bet stats are like and how wide you think he is opening from that position.

Personally if villain had FT3B of 60% or more I would probs 3-bet and try and take the pot down there and then as apposed to flatting and trying to play OOP.

I just do not like playing pots OOP so will tend to mainly 3-bet. But problem I am having is doing this even with hands like AK, I will 3-bet fire a c-bet then just end up giving up if called and miss the flop.

I have actually been thinking about whether or not it will be more profitable in the long run for me just flatting hands like AJ, AQ, AK, KQs and playing them OOP, and if I pick up some decent equity OTF I will carry on if not just fold then I have likely only wasted a few bb apposed to a lot more if I was to 3-bet then c-bet. Where as if I do hit something decent my hand is some what disguised as I never 3-bet pre.

I may try that for now and only 3-bet hands like JJ, QQ + from the blinds which I find a little easier to play OOP apposed to AK if you do not hit the flop as you are just guessing.
 
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flatting doesn't require you to outplay anyone? flatting is also cheaper, and initiative is very very overrated and theoretically irrelevant.

So you're saying you can profit by playing fit/fold poker after flatting from the blinds? A poker coach did a study about microstakes players who flat with a certain selection of hands (I think it was A9s, A9o, ATs, ATo and some suited/offsuit broadways), vs players who 3bet. The coach asked these players to look at their database for which play they profited more from and almost all said 3betting. Even though as the coach discussed, flatting is "theoretically" optimal with some of these hands, in practice most microstakes players lack the skill and fine tuning to manoeuvre well postflop to compensate for the lack of initiative (and position in this case) when flatting. 3betting with initiative makes it easier to play these hands, since you can simply cbet most good boards and often take it down pre. I think at higher limits flatting should be used more often since there will be more of the "better regs" who can exploit you for 3betting too much.
This is just what i think, but i could be completely wrong so feel free to correct me.
 
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As for being in the blinds vs a BTN open I suppose it really depends on who is raising and what his fold to 3-bet stats are like and how wide you think he is opening from that position.

Personally if villain had FT3B of 60% or more I would probs 3-bet and try and take the pot down there and then as apposed to flatting and trying to play OOP.

I just do not like playing pots OOP so will tend to mainly 3-bet. But problem I am having is doing this even with hands like AK, I will 3-bet fire a c-bet then just end up giving up if called and miss the flop.

I have actually been thinking about whether or not it will be more profitable in the long run for me just flatting hands like AJ, AQ, AK, KQs and playing them OOP, and if I pick up some decent equity OTF I will carry on if not just fold then I have likely only wasted a few bb apposed to a lot more if I was to 3-bet then c-bet. Where as if I do hit something decent my hand is some what disguised as I never 3-bet pre.

I may try that for now and only 3-bet hands like JJ, QQ + from the blinds which I find a little easier to play OOP apposed to AK if you do not hit the flop as you are just guessing.

I understand AK is a hard hand to play but i think it is a mandatory 3bet vs a button open. The point is that you are way ahead of the button's range so there is a lot of value in 3betting. You should usually follow it up with a c-bet, and a lot of players will just fold whenever they miss which is very profitable for you. Also if they call the 3bet with a hand like AQ, AJ, KQ then you have them dominated and could win their stack if an A or K comes.
 
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So you're saying you can profit by playing fit/fold poker after flatting from the blinds? A poker coach did a study about microstakes players who flat with a certain selection of hands (I think it was A9s, A9o, ATs, ATo and some suited/offsuit broadways), vs players who 3bet. The coach asked these players to look at their database for which play they profited more from and almost all said 3betting. Even though as the coach discussed, flatting is "theoretically" optimal with some of these hands, in practice most microstakes players lack the skill and fine tuning to manoeuvre well postflop to compensate for the lack of initiative (and position in this case) when flatting. 3betting with initiative makes it easier to play these hands, since you can simply cbet most good boards and often take it down pre. I think at higher limits flatting should be used more often since there will be more of the "better regs" who can exploit you for 3betting too much.
This is just what i think, but i could be completely wrong so feel free to correct me.


Let's create a scenario. Say you and a reg are both 100BB deep. He open the BTN 2.5BB. You 3Bet in the SB with ATs to 9BB. Give me a couple of boards where you think you can make money against his flatting range. Taking into consideration he don't have any worse aces. His range is pretty much flipping with you KQs etc. Or dominates you AJs/AQs occasionally AKs as well. He can probably flat suited connectors every now and then to balance which gives you a bit more % vs his range but the it's probably so minimal because you struggle to realise it OOP.

Or. You can flat and dominate most of his range. You still have to play OOP, but you haven't bloated the pot and aren't behind his range.
 
duggs

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So you're saying you can profit by playing fit/fold poker after flatting from the blinds? A poker coach did a study about microstakes players who flat with a certain selection of hands (I think it was A9s, A9o, ATs, ATo and some suited/offsuit broadways), vs players who 3bet. The coach asked these players to look at their database for which play they profited more from and almost all said 3betting. Even though as the coach discussed, flatting is "theoretically" optimal with some of these hands, in practice most microstakes players lack the skill and fine tuning to manoeuvre well postflop to compensate for the lack of initiative (and position in this case) when flatting. 3betting with initiative makes it easier to play these hands, since you can simply cbet most good boards and often take it down pre. I think at higher limits flatting should be used more often since there will be more of the "better regs" who can exploit you for 3betting too much.
This is just what i think, but i could be completely wrong so feel free to correct me.

the coach being?

if you are 3betting AT because its profitable but are concerned with your frequencies it can be a better overall strategy to 3bet A5s instead and flat AT since A5s will have almost identical equity as a 3bet as AT but much less value as a flat,

im not really interested in easiest way to play it, I'm more concerned with the highest EV line, there are absolutely hands which we can't 3bet profitably but can show a profit flatting. opponents where 3betting is more profitable sounds like opponents we could theoretically 3bet 100% against and show a tidy profit.
 
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mottotom27

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Let's create a scenario. Say you and a reg are both 100BB deep. He open the BTN 2.5BB. You 3Bet in the SB with ATs to 9BB. Give me a couple of boards where you think you can make money against his flatting range. Taking into consideration he don't have any worse aces. His range is pretty much flipping with you KQs etc. Or dominates you AJs/AQs occasionally AKs as well. He can probably flat suited connectors every now and then to balance which gives you a bit more % vs his range but the it's probably so minimal because you struggle to realise it OOP.

Or. You can flat and dominate most of his range. You still have to play OOP, but you haven't bloated the pot and aren't behind his range.

I absolutely agree that flatting with ATs is in theory a better play than 3betting. However you are forgetting that 3betting also picks up a ton of dead money. Let's suppose the reg folds to 3bets 80% of the time (this is pretty common at micros). Since you're risking 8.5 bb to win 4 you the play only has to work less than 70% to show an outright profit. Even if called you can cbet and often get your opponent to fold a better hand, so this adds to the profit even more. (e.g. if you have AT and your opponent has AJ and the board comes K72, who will win the pot? the player who cbets)

So 3betting with ATs is clearly a profitable play on its own. Is flatting a profitable play? It can be but it requires more skill, and not many players at the micros have that skill. Some will play fit/fold poker, others will donk bet or check/raise bluff far too often and end up spewing. Finding the right balance between these two extremes is hard to pull off in practice for a micro stakes player.
 
duggs

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I absolutely agree that flatting with ATs is in theory a better play than 3betting. However you are forgetting that 3betting also picks up a ton of dead money. Let's suppose the reg folds to 3bets 80% of the time (this is pretty common at micros). Since you're risking 8.5 bb to win 4 you the play only has to work less than 70% to show an outright profit. Even if called you can cbet and often get your opponent to fold a better hand, so this adds to the profit even more. (e.g. if you have AT and your opponent has AJ and the board comes K72, who will win the pot? the player who cbets)

So 3betting with ATs is clearly a profitable play on its own. Is flatting a profitable play? It can be but it requires more skill, and not many players at the micros have that skill. Some will play fit/fold poker, others will donk bet or check/raise bluff far too often and end up spewing. Finding the right balance between these two extremes is hard to pull off in practice for a micro stakes player.

like i said above, 3bet 100% v this villain. flat QQ+ AK
 
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the coach being?

if you are 3betting AT because its profitable but are concerned with your frequencies it can be a better overall strategy to 3bet A5s instead and flat AT since A5s will have almost identical equity as a 3bet as AT but much less value as a flat,

im not really interested in easiest way to play it, I'm more concerned with the highest EV line, there are absolutely hands which we can't 3bet profitably but can show a profit flatting. opponents where 3betting is more profitable sounds like opponents we could theoretically 3bet 100% against and show a tidy profit.

i think it was actually John A near the start of his polished poker vol 1 thread. i recognise that you are probably a good player who can extract more EV from flatting that 3betting with a hand like AT. But not everyone has that skill, and that's something i'll need to work on.
 
duggs

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i think it was actually John A near the start of his polished poker vol 1 thread. i recognise that you are probably a good player who can extract more EV from flatting that 3betting with a hand like AT. But not everyone has that skill, and that's something i'll need to work on.

yea but i mean, you aren't going to improve dodging tough decisions. thats how we learn
 
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I absolutely agree that flatting with ATs is in theory a better play than 3betting. However you are forgetting that 3betting also picks up a ton of dead money. Let's suppose the reg folds to 3bets 80% of the time (this is pretty common at micros). Since you're risking 8.5 bb to win 4 you the play only has to work less than 70% to show an outright profit. Even if called you can cbet and often get your opponent to fold a better hand, so this adds to the profit even more. (e.g. if you have AT and your opponent has AJ and the board comes K72, who will win the pot? the player who cbets)

So 3betting with ATs is clearly a profitable play on its own. Is flatting a profitable play? It can be but it requires more skill, and not many players at the micros have that skill. Some will play fit/fold poker, others will donk bet or check/raise bluff far too often and end up spewing. Finding the right balance between these two extremes is hard to pull off in practice for a micro stakes player.


So we are 3 betting A10 as a bluff here to pick up the dead money. Against this villain why aren't we just 3 betting like 95% ?
 
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like i said above, 3bet 100% v this villain. flat QQ+ AK

If we do this 100% and they don't adjust vs us then that's fine, but i expect a lot of players to adjust if we keep doing it. I mean i have a 90% F3B so far at 10nl and you might think that seems really exploitable, but so far it isn't. i find a lot of the players have a really low 3b percentage so i can just fold most of my range. I've only come across one or two who 3b me frequently and i've quickly adjusted vs them. I'll tighten up my raising range, and play back at them from time to time (sometimes i'll just find another table too). So far it's been working and they've shut down quite a bit now they know i'm capable of adjusting and making plays at them. But i agree there will be some players who never 4bet bluff and won't adjust and against these players we can 3bet them light all day :)
 
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yea but i mean, you aren't going to improve dodging tough decisions. thats how we learn

true true, but it might detract from my winrate slightly at 10nl. maybe it's worth sacrificing a bb or two for the long term learning experience though.
 
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If we do this 100% and they don't adjust vs us then that's fine, but i expect a lot of players to adjust if we keep doing it. I mean i have a 90% F3B so far at 10nl and you might think that seems really exploitable, but so far it isn't. i find a lot of the players have a really low 3b percentage so i can just fold most of my range. I've only come across one or two who 3b me frequently and i've quickly adjusted vs them. I'll tighten up my raising range, and play back at them from time to time (sometimes i'll just find another table too). So far it's been working and they've shut down quite a bit now they know i'm capable of adjusting and making plays at them. But i agree there will be some players who never 4bet bluff and won't adjust and against these players we can 3bet them light all day :)

then if they are going to adjust, ATs is a hand i flat, and something that plays worse as a flat is 3bet, like A5s.
 
atlantafalcons0

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like i said above, 3bet 100% v this villain. flat QQ+ AK

Idk how deep this is but are you advocating not 3betting aces or kings out of position???

I think this is wrong, I'll never flat with aces or kings especially OOP.

Bad advice IMO.
 
duggs

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Idk how deep this is but are you advocating not 3betting aces or kings out of position???

I think this is wrong, I'll never flat with aces or kings especially OOP.

Bad advice IMO.

did you read the whole conversation, I'm not actually advocating it. its a counter argument to fictional opponents who fold far too much to 3bets.
 
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did you read the whole conversation, I'm not actually advocating it. its a counter argument to fictional opponents who fold far too much to 3bets.

Then just 3bet more hands, right?

Don't start flatting with premium hands....

Right?!
 
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Then just 3bet more hands, right?

Don't start flatting with premium hands....

Right?!

it depends on how wide they open, and what they do post, if they fold 90% generally, AA has massive blockers to a lot of their calling range so they will fold even more. AA is extremely easy to play oop and we can either call 3 barrels if he is aggro, or raise flop and gii v worst made hands.

that said iv never seen an opponent where its practically useful to do it. but theoretically its possible sure.
 
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then if they are going to adjust, ATs is a hand i flat, and something that plays worse as a flat is 3bet, like A5s.

I think this is a fair point, but what i've been doing vs these players is 3betting a merged range (some strong, some medium and some semibluffs) but folding all the rags, so instead of 3betting 100%, 3b something like 20-30% that way they will be less likely to notice/adjust and we can get away with picking up a lot of dead money. Since A5s and ATs are both within that range i 3bet both vs these players. Do you think this strategy is ok?
 
duggs

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I think this is a fair point, but what i've been doing vs these players is 3betting a merged range (some strong, some medium and some semibluffs) but folding all the rags, so instead of 3betting 100%, 3b something like 20-30% that way they will be less likely to notice/adjust and we can get away with picking up a lot of dead money. Since A5s and ATs are both within that range i 3bet both vs these players. Do you think this strategy is ok?

sounds fine to me dude
 
atlantafalcons0

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it depends on how wide they open, and what they do post, if they fold 90% generally, AA has massive blockers to a lot of their calling range so they will fold even more. AA is extremely easy to play oop and we can either call 3 barrels if he is aggro, or raise flop and gii v worst made hands.

that said iv never seen an opponent where its practically useful to do it. but theoretically its possible sure.

Thank you sir,

Very helpful information!
 
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ok thanks. i think i'll keep doing this against those player types, and 3b light even more against the players who never adjust, and flat more against the better regs with reasonable hands like ATs and try and play some poker :)
 
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well gl on the tables

Not having much so far. This... finally broke even
 

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hffjd2000

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Nice play but then again, there are many fishes out there that dont understand your move and call our 3bet. In the process, they have the position over us and mostly fish is lucky and would hit good on the flop.
 
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