Bluffing with a draw

belerophon

belerophon

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I'm curious about when it is correct to bluff with a draw.
Say your in position with AKs and you flop two to a flush. Villain bets out standard 1/2 the pot raise. Should you always come over the top with a raise? When are the right times to do so and when are the wrong?
I've got a decent aggressive streak in me so bluffing in this circumstance always seems like a good idea to me.
 
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LizzyJ

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Semi-bluffing. Great move. I need several things in place before I semi-bluff. First how strong is your draw? If you are drawing towards a weak flush or the bottom end of the straight or an inside straight, I'm not so aggressive UNLESS I have a really great read on my opponent and I know that they the ability to fold. Second, if I have a strong draw, nut flush, Broadway or the top end of the straight, or my favorite: open end straight, nut flush and two overcards; then I am playing really aggressively. I'm either going over the top (re-raise 3-4x) if they bet or putting out a strong bet (pot sized or all in) if I'm first to the pot.
 
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Ubercroz

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Depends, like everything I guess, but if there are more people in the pot like three or four I'm okay calling with the nut draw I don't mnd those people being there to pay me off with worse draws. Same situation with the non nutdraw I think a semi-bluff squeeze in position is good you may clear out some better draws with the raise and you take initiative. The stronger my draw in a multiway pot the less likely I am to push people out.
Heads up it depends on the villain if they cbet a lot I wil raise it since I've got pretty decent fold equity f it's station I call if the odds Are right and bet for value when I hit
 
S93

S93

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Depends, like everything I guess, but if there are more people in the pot like three or four I'm okay calling with the nut draw I don't mnd those people being there to pay me off with worse draws. Same situation with the non nutdraw I think a semi-bluff squeeze in position is good you may clear out some better draws with the raise and you take initiative. The stronger my draw in a multiway pot the less likely I am to push people out.
Heads up it depends on the villain if they cbet a lot I wil raise it since I've got pretty decent fold equity f it's station I call if the odds Are right and bet for value when I hit
This part is very important imo.
If its a multiway pot calling is often superior since our FE is lower meaning raising often just bloats the pot and by just calling were often geting the right price to chase or we will be geting the right price if one of the other people in the pot calls.
And if were IP it also means extracing wont be a big problem if we hit.
 
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Ubercroz

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This part is very important imo.
If its a multiway pot calling is often superior since our FE is lower meaning raising often just bloats the pot and by just calling were often geting the right price to chase or we will be geting the right price if one of the other people in the pot calls.
And if were IP it also means extracing wont be a big problem if we hit.

Do you still want to just call if it's not a big draw?
My concern is with a smaller draw we may be paying to pay off a bigger draw, so I kind of like to squeeze there to hopfeully eliminate the other draws. The downside of that is you may not squeeze anyone and run into the same problem
 
S93

S93

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Do you still want to just call if it's not a big draw?
My concern is with a smaller draw we may be paying to pay off a bigger draw, so I kind of like to squeeze there to hopfeully eliminate the other draws. The downside of that is you may not squeeze anyone and run into the same problem
Like u said it all depends but in general when im IP in a multiway against unknowns im not raising many draws, OOP its a difrent story since its so hard to extract from there so ending the hand quickly cant be a bad option.

But obvs when villains are predictable abc players that just cbet/fold all day raising becomes my prefered choice again.
At micro stakes(which i think most of us in this thread are playing) people also dont fold many draws so raising to fold out draws isnt really that preductive if we aint prepered to double/triple barrel.

Im just rambling but hopefully u get what im saying.
It depends but IP im more likely to call and OOP im more likly to raise.
 
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Ubercroz

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I think that's a pretty fair statement that micros are not laying down draws- especially to the nuts- even to a big reraise that should kill their odds.

Another thought on draws- missed draw on the river- bet your small draws and check the big ones more often I think. If everyone was on the draw high card may win. Betting your high card will usually only get a call from a better hand while. The lower draw may fold the overcard that was on the draw
 
belerophon

belerophon

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Thanks for the feedback and the great link to the other thread.
I guess I'm just wondering how aggressive should I be when I have the draw IP. I keep thinking that I should have the same pattern for both weak and strong draws and even when I have no draw.
I suppose in micros if I'm certain that I'm going to get called then going over the top with a semi bluff is not a good idea?
 
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abomb576

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I think that's a pretty fair statement that micros are not laying down draws- especially to the nuts- even to a big reraise that should kill their odds.

Another thought on draws- missed draw on the river- bet your small draws and check the big ones more often I think. If everyone was on the draw high card may win. Betting your high card will usually only get a call from a better hand while. The lower draw may fold the overcard that was on the draw

Ya micros are a different games as most players are willing to go more aggressive. People will call with hand they would ordinary fold due to the small amount of money at hand. Its good to remember not to get suckered into bad bets when playing micros as the excuse is it is such a small amount of money. Money is still money!
 
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Ubercroz

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Thanks for the feedback and the great link to the other thread.
I guess I'm just wondering how aggressive should I be when I have the draw IP. I keep thinking that I should have the same pattern for both weak and strong draws and even when I have no draw.
I suppose in micros if I'm certain that I'm going to get called then going over the top with a semi bluff is not a good idea?

It's not a real great idea to be overly aggressive all the time. Consider the opponent not just what you have. There is no hard and fast rule like semibluffing with flush draw will always make money in position. Because it will work against some villains and not others. Like I said before do they cbet alot. Were you the preflop raiser? Is there a pair on the board? Are they usually very passive? Lots of situations to consider.
So I guess sometimes yes. Against a calling station no. Against a maniac no. Against multiple opponents no. But then again all of these could still be sometimes yes.
 
D_russo88

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Yea it's a good idea. Its good to raise on a draw. People do that all the time. It's perfectly fine. :)
 
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Ubercroz

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Yea it's a good idea. Its good to raise on a draw. People do that all the time. It's perfectly fine. :)

People lose money all the time too, so I think your logic is a little flawed.
 
forsakenone

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if i had AKs and i hit a flush draw, i would defenetly bet it, maybe even go all in, maybe, if i hit a A or K i might also be good, so more outs, obv this would work at small and micro stakes. i have no clue what would happen at 100nl.
 
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Donkus Maximus

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I just got through watching some of those clips of the durrr v isildur1 massacre and aparently the best thing to do is push all in under all circumstances no matter how unlikely you are to hit, particularly if you have half a million in your stack. I guess thats just those guys thinking on a higher level. In fact, I don't even know why they bother with the cards- they could just type "raise", "reraise", "all in" and "call" into the machine and let the computer randomly pick a winner for each hand.

Back to the substantive issue of how to play draws in the real world. I find it is important to know how I will play the hand to the end. If I raise and my opponent pushes all in, I will call if I have the odds.
If its a multiway pot, I am less aggressive because I know that there will probably be someone calling to hit the second or third nuts.
If i am in posiiton against one player and it is a weak draw, I am far more likely to raise, since I want to pick it up there and then.
So many variables.
 
spiderman637

spiderman637

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2 important things u did not mention mate...
one is the stakes of the table, which is very very important and the second thing is the table impression of the villain...
And if its a low stakes table, then i would definitely call his bet to chase the flush draw...
 
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BenLZ

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I'm curious about when it is correct to bluff with a draw.
Say your in position with AKs and you flop two to a flush. Villain bets out standard 1/2 the pot raise. Should you always come over the top with a raise? When are the right times to do so and when are the wrong?
I've got a decent aggressive streak in me so bluffing in this circumstance always seems like a good idea to me.

I'd pretty always raise here. I can't think of a time I wouldn't, and I'd be fine getting it all in. You're actually a favorite against a pair with a flush and two overcards.

I can't think of a time where I would advocate just calling. I don't know, maybe you could make a case for it if he's a calling station but it's still +EV to get it in.
 
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