Bluff-raising postflop

Some very general questions:

-What kind of board textures do you bluff raise?
-How does that change vs different opponents? ie thinking vs non-thinking? aggro vs passive?
-Are you more likely to do it in position or out of position? Does this change based on flop texture/type of opponent?
-What type of flop textures are you more likely to float rather than bluff raise?

I find some pretty conflicting opinions on this and would like to hear more.

I'll discuss how I use this tatic, however I don't do this very often.

1. Avoid doing this on Broadway boards unless you have seen the villain play low pocket pairs aggressively. When a ace hits its not really worth ever trying here since many players range of raising hands are with aces.

2. I wouldn't do this to a loose player who just call your raise and you end up having to invest much more on the turn to try to win the pot. Also aggressive players range of hands is so big they could hit almost any flop.
This tatic is best used on tight/semi tight players who are known to raising Broadway hands and Cbet lots of flops.

3. Check raising defending your blind where the villain can easily be holding garbage is easy way of doing this. You really can't do this much when you have position because most players wont donk bet into you. Similar to question 2, you try to put people on a range of hands that would likly miss this flop.

4. You could float draw heavy boards and raise when you either make your hand or a draw hits. This often scares people out of pots however you risking a lot of chips again floating with garbage.

Note: If people notice you are doing this they will reraise you with much weaker hands, so keep this in mind. Could be helpful for getting action when you do have a hand.

ChuckTs said:

Some very general questions:

-What kind of board textures do you bluff raise?

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Well I'm sure you know it depends on how opponent plays for all of these, so these are kinda general, but against the average opponent I am going to very rarely bluff raise if I'm in position. I just like to keep a wide floating range rather than try to balance flop raises. But hands I will bluff raise after flatting pre:

- wet flop, I'll be raising 100% of my sets/other big hands so I'll bluff raise hands where I have a marginal draw. Obviously the combo-draws I'm raising pretty much for value and the strongish draws like NFD I'll probably just flat because I don't want to get 3-bet. But say JT7 2-toned flop and I have A9 or Q8 without the flush draw I'd be likely to semi-bluff raise it.

- dry flop, since we are very rarely floating extremely light I like bluff-raising these flops a bit along with raising them with hands like sets. If you get a very aggro opponent who tends to call down light I'd also be raising hands like AJ+ for value just because his range should be a lot of Ax and since generally people don't raise Ax on that board he'll put us on a nuts or air and on an Axx dry board that leaves only 2 possible flopped sets basically that we could have since we rarely/never flat AA preflop. But this only works against someone competent and preferably one who thinks you're a bit spewy.

ChuckTs said:

-How does that change vs different opponents? ie thinking vs non-thinking? aggro vs passive?

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I don't think aggro vs. passive really matters all that much we need to be looking at more specifics than that. One of the biggest things assuming we're talking about a hand we flat in position is how often does he cbet with air on this particular board. How will he play future streets with air? If he's the type to just cbet and give up if called and not fire 2 barrels often I float any flop against him. This ties in with thinking vs. non-thinking as well just because a lot of non-thinking opponents don't plan ahead they just say "let's cbet" and then see we called and they don't have a hadn and shut down while thinking players are more likely to check/raise turns both as bluffs and for value as well as double barrel you. I'd be more likely to be bluff raising flops a lot more against him just because out of all possible lines it's probably the cheapest bluff, I like making my flop raises smallish just because they don't have to be big to get money in by the river in position. But again if they're the type to just always think you're making a play on them and they'd 3-bet jam flop with A high then obviously you don't want to bluff raise him as much.

ChuckTs said:

-Are you more likely to do it in position or out of position? Does this change based on flop texture/type of opponent?

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Previously I just assumed we were talking IP just because oop is going to be a C/R and basically our float with air option is gone. We shouldn't be playing many hands oop but when we do C/R bluff is definitely important and dependent on things such as how often they cbet, how they'll perceive the C/R and how they'll react to it.

ChuckTs said:

-What type of flop textures are you more likely to float rather than bluff raise?

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I think I covered this enough earlier.

ChuckTs said:

I find some pretty conflicting opinions on this and would like to hear more.

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+1, what I wrote is what I personally do I'm curious as to other approaches including yours Chuck.



edit: Also I was fully expecting this to be a bump and you asking 3 years ago "omg is it ok sometimes postflop to raise when you don't actually have a made hand?" I was pleasantly surprised it was not .

ChuckTs said:

Some very general questions:

-What kind of board textures do you bluff raise?
-How does that change vs different opponents? ie thinking vs non-thinking? aggro vs passive?
-Are you more likely to do it in position or out of position? Does this change based on flop texture/type of opponent?
-What type of flop textures are you more likely to float rather than bluff raise?

I find some pretty conflicting opinions on this and would like to hear more.

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When answering these questions, I'm defining "bluff raise" as a hand that has very little chance of being best or of improving. In other words, I'm not including raising flushdraws or open-enders on the flop. Also, I'm talking only about raising the flop (not turn or river).

Also, the all-important disclaimer: I play a 18/15 style 6-max, so simply for that reason I don't get to have "air" anywhere near as often as someone who plays 24/20 or whatever.

#1: Texture. I think it's easier to say what kind of texture I'm not raising as a bluff, and that is coordinated boards. The problem with raising coordinated boards is that a lot of people have a hard time folding even medium pairs because they'll so happily assume you have a draw. And that's not even accounting for the fact that they may well have some kind of a draw themselves and will just reraise you. So when I bluffraise, it's probably not going to be on a board like J-T-8 twotone. I like bluffing really dry flops where my opponent can realistically believe that I have a hand like a medium pocket pair trying to protect from overcards, e.g. a flop like J-3-3, where I could conceivably have for instance 66-TT.

#2: Different opponents. I basically don't bluffraise non-thinking opponents on the flop, mostly because I don't think they fold often enough. I guess it depends on what you mean by "thinking" but I don't make money by bluffing bad players, I typically make money valuebetting them. If I'm seeing a flop vs a fish I'm hoping to hit. I keep "fold-flop-cbet-to-raise%" up in the HUD, and I go by that more than the kind of player I'm facing.

If I'm bent on bluffing very aggressive players, I try my best to do it in a way that sets me up to get the last raise in because what I really don't want to have happen is for them to rebluff me. But even then, it's rare for me to do it without SOME chance of winning; I very rarely go out on an all-in bluff with air. I like at least some kind of backdoor draw or overcard to fall back on the times that I get looked up. But like I said, I'm a nit, so it's hard for me to have absolutely nothing.

#3: I'm more likely to do it in position, because I'm much more likely to have air in position than out of position. If we're talking semibluffs (flushdraws, combodraws, etc), then I'm probably more likely to get it in out of position mostly to negate the positional disadvantage while I still have a lot of equity, but it's rare for me to have 87s out of position.

#4: Floating instead of raising: When I float, I'm typically representing either a big top pair, a monster or a medium PP taking one off, so it has to be a board that I can play like that. For instance a board like Q-7-3 where I flatcalled an MP raise on the button, he c-bets and I call. I could have 77, 33, KQ, AQ or a hand like TT. If I have a hand like JTs with a backdoor flush, this would be the kind of board I might float to try to take it away on the turn. But I very rarely float any flop without some chance of improving to what could conceivably be the best hand.

Started this when I had a few beers in me, I realize it's extremely general.

zachvac said:

- dry flop, since we are very rarely floating extremely light I like bluff-raising these flops a bit along with raising them with hands like sets. If you get a very aggro opponent who tends to call down light I'd also be raising hands like AJ+ for value just because his range should be a lot of Ax and since generally people don't raise Ax on that board he'll put us on a nuts or air and on an Axx dry board that leaves only 2 possible flopped sets basically that we could have since we rarely/never flat AA preflop. But this only works against someone competent and preferably one who thinks you're a bit spewy.

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I don't think I ever raise A high for value, that's pretty surprising (esp since you play FR). I definitely can raise KQ on Kxx, or 99 on 236 for value against the thinking aggro opponent who can repop as a bluff/semibluff, but A high is surprising.

This was one of the bigger scenarios I was a little confused about, and I think the solution is just that it's completely opponent dependent. You have to know what level they're thinking at and play accordingly.

For ex someone who's at the stage where they are lag/tag pf, cbet lots, but don't know how to continue past that point. Those are the guys we can bluff-raise dry Kxx/952/A22 flops knowing that even though we aren't repping anything, he's not smart enough to realize it and just calls/repops when he has it and folds when he doesn't.

zachvac said:

Previously I just assumed we were talking IP just because oop is going to be a C/R and basically our float with air option is gone. We shouldn't be playing many hands oop but when we do C/R bluff is definitely important and dependent on things such as how often they cbet, how they'll perceive the C/R and how they'll react to it.

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A very good point. I've been switching up my play a lot with flatting rather than 3betting (another probably factor in my downswing) and it's put me in a lot more postflop spots.

And of course another general question gets a fairly general answer.

zachvac said:

edit: Also I was fully expecting this to be a bump and you asking 3 years ago "omg is it ok sometimes postflop to raise when you don't actually have a made hand?" I was pleasantly surprised it was not .

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heh, no sir, just trying to get my fundamentals right again. Thanks for the responses Zach.

F Paulsson said:

#1: Texture. I think it's easier to say what kind of texture I'm not raising as a bluff, and that is coordinated boards. The problem with raising coordinated boards is that a lot of people have a hard time folding even medium pairs because they'll so happily assume you have a draw. And that's not even accounting for the fact that they may well have some kind of a draw themselves and will just reraise you. So when I bluffraise, it's probably not going to be on a board like J-T-8 twotone. I like bluffing really dry flops where my opponent can realistically believe that I have a hand like a medium pocket pair trying to protect from overcards, e.g. a flop like J-3-3, where I could conceivably have for instance 66-TT.

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And already we have a conflicting opinion

On a drawy board...

We can raise because:

- We can rep a big draw that intends to get all the money in, potentially scaring him off weak top pairs or worse
- There are always more potential monsters on drawy boards vs dry ones combinatorially (lol sp? combinatorically? combinatorally?)

Raising is bad because:

- We rep draws and can call down lighter
- Our opponents will have draws/monsters more often (just as we will) and will jam over our raise

On a dry board:

Raising is good because:

- We can bluff raise repping hands that are protecting (ex med pairs on J33)
- We don't rep weak draws
- Our opponent can't have much

Raising is bad because:

- Are we really raising med pairs for value on J33? We have to have a dynamic where that would actually be plausible
- Otherwise we're repping monsters which as we all know are so hard to make combinatorially that people often just omit them from our range
- Therefore we get repopped as a bluff a TON (and should do this ourselves against aggro opponents)

F Paulsson said:

#2: Different opponents. I basically don't bluffraise non-thinking opponents on the flop, mostly because I don't think they fold often enough. I guess it depends on what you mean by "thinking" but I don't make money by bluffing bad players, I typically make money valuebetting them. If I'm seeing a flop vs a fish I'm hoping to hit. I keep "fold-flop-cbet-to-raise%" up in the HUD, and I go by that more than the kind of player I'm facing.

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Fair enough. I guess the deciding factor here is what we consider a 'thinking' or 'non-thinking' opponent. My question was too vague, but it looks like you just don't bluff raise fish, which I think is fine. There are definitely times to do it but as you say, value betting them is much more important.

The fold flop cbet to raise stat is something I use a great deal too. Again I get a little confused as to which I should be paying more attention to: the flop texture or that stat? Do we bluff raise A22 because he's got a %65 FFCBtR stat or do we give up because we know it hits his range lots?

F Paulsson said:

If I'm bent on bluffing very aggressive players, I try my best to do it in a way that sets me up to get the last raise in because what I really don't want to have happen is for them to rebluff me. But even then, it's rare for me to do it without SOME chance of winning; I very rarely go out on an all-in bluff with air. I like at least some kind of backdoor draw or overcard to fall back on the times that I get looked up. But like I said, I'm a nit, so it's hard for me to have absolutely nothing.

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So does that mean you're not bluff raising aggro players on the flop? ie you think they're too likely to repop you, taking away that 'last raiser's' power?

F Paulsson said:

#4: Floating instead of raising: When I float, I'm typically representing either a big top pair, a monster or a medium PP taking one off, so it has to be a board that I can play like that. For instance a board like Q-7-3 where I flatcalled an MP raise on the button, he c-bets and I call. I could have 77, 33, KQ, AQ or a hand like TT. If I have a hand like JTs with a backdoor flush, this would be the kind of board I might float to try to take it away on the turn. But I very rarely float any flop without some chance of improving to what could conceivably be the best hand.

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Well if you're flatting your top pairs and monsters on that dry board, what are you repping when you raise it?

Doesn't flatting sets and top pairs just leave you repping basically nothing when you bluff raise that flop texture?

Interesting discussion. Don't have time to answer right now, but reading with interest.

One question you left out is the size of the bluff raise. Do you always go for something close to pot sized or do you rather click back a min raise ?

I think unless the pot's unusually large or small, 3x or a little smaller is my standard. Big enough for value when we have it, and for fold equity when we don't, and it's small enough to make our bluffs cheap.

ChuckTs said:

The fold flop cbet to raise stat is something I use a great deal too. Again I get a little confused as to which I should be paying more attention to: the flop texture or that stat? Do we bluff raise A22 because he's got a %65 FFCBtR stat or do we give up because we know it hits his range lots?

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The A-2-2 is a good example, because it's the kind of flop where there's really nothing I can have that I'd raise. I'm certainly not raising 2-2 or AA, and there aren't that many A-x hands that make sense for me to raise either. So if I want to take it away from someone on a flop like that, I'd have to be in position, have a backdoor draw and float with a hand like JTs, and they'd need to be the kind of player that c-bets the flop all the time but gives up on the turn if they don't have it, whereas I need to have a tight image myself.

So does that mean you're not bluff raising aggro players on the flop? ie you think they're too likely to repop you, taking away that 'last raiser's' power?

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Yup, pretty much.

Well if you're flatting your top pairs and monsters on that dry board, what are you repping when you raise it?

Doesn't flatting sets and top pairs just leave you repping basically nothing when you bluff raise that flop texture?

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Well, no, not really, because I'm doing it versus different players. I (usually) flat top pairs and sets on dry boards versus players who fold easily to a raise, but I (again, usually) raise versus players who don't like folding and might even rebluffshove. And I don't have to have it very often for a rebluffshove to be bad, since that player is usually risking something like $175 to win $60, and needs to win, what... 75% of the time? I can bluff 3 times for every one time that I have the set without it being profitable for him to shove over me. In practise, I probably don't bluff that often. Of course, he could make a smaller 3-bet, but then he risks me shoving with a weaker hand and we're back to the whole "last raise" thing.

Edit:

Some of the quotes didn't get added the first time; I must have cut something out accidently:

- Are we really raising med pairs for value on J33? We have to have a dynamic where that would actually be plausible

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I wouldn't say "for value." But for protection versus someone we trust will play his hand honestly, sure. Versus a tight and somewhat passive player, we can raise 66-TT in position on a J-3-3 flop expecting him to fold everything that's worse (but that typically has about 20% equity versus us) and call or raise with anything that's better. So when I raise 88 on that board, I do it with the intention of it being the last money I put into the pot unimproved.

F Paulsson said:

#4: Floating instead of raising: When I float, I'm typically representing either a big top pair, a monster or a medium PP taking one off, so it has to be a board that I can play like that. For instance a board like Q-7-3 where I flatcalled an MP raise on the button, he c-bets and I call. I could have 77, 33, KQ, AQ or a hand like TT. If I have a hand like JTs with a backdoor flush, this would be the kind of board I might float to try to take it away on the turn. But I very rarely float any flop without some chance of improving to what could conceivably be the best hand.

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I'm curious about the part that I bolded. Does this mean that you're never floating a flop that is dry/extremely dry against any opponent even with nothing? Even an opponent that c-bets flops tons but doesn't double barrel often? Part of the reason that I ask is I'm recalling videos that I've watched and people have talked about players often showing the true value of their hand on the turn.

Or is this one of the "rarely" situations that you mean?

NineLions said:

I'm curious about the part that I bolded. Does this mean that you're never floating a flop that is dry/extremely dry against any opponent even with nothing? Even an opponent that c-bets flops tons but doesn't double barrel often? Part of the reason that I ask is I'm recalling videos that I've watched and people have talked about players often showing the true value of their hand on the turn.

Or is this one of the "rarely" situations that you mean?

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Oh, it happens, but compared to the times that I float with a hand that has some kind of backdoor value, my "pure air" hands are pretty rare. I typically only do that if I have some other dynamic going for me, like playing versus someone who thinks I'm ultratight or so.

But floating 76s on a A-J-2 flop is not something I do often.

ChuckTs said:

I don't think I ever raise A high for value, that's pretty surprising (esp since you play FR). I definitely can raise KQ on Kxx, or 99 on 236 for value against the thinking aggro opponent who can repop as a bluff/semibluff, but A high is surprising.

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I think you read my post wrong I meant raising Ax on a dry Axx board for value with TPGK just because villains may not want to fold weak aces as much because of the fact that you can't rep much more than 1-2 sets on dry A-high boards.

ya that makes a lot more sense. Should have thought about that comment for more than 2 seconds :/