Bluff c betting at 2nl/5nl

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mottotom27

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Hi. I was wondering what typically the optimal c bet sizing is at 2nl/5nl against an average opponent when you DON'T hit the board and the board texture isn't too wet? If you bet too small you won't get any folds but if you bet too much you're risking too much. I've been betting 55-60% as a standard bluff c-betting size (which is less than my value sizing (2/3-full pot) as very few people will exploit my sizing at these limits). Is this the optimal sizing or should I bet a little more (2/3 pot) to try and squeeze out more folds?

Now I'll give examples of bluff c-betting possibilities which I get confused about.

I know I generally shouldn't generally c bet on wet boards but how wet is wet? e.g.

1) K-10 on 5-8-9 rainbow, button vs blind (unknown), should I c-bet?
2) What about 6-7 on A-2-3 with two diamonds?

Another issue is what about in 3 bet pots

3) When AK misses OOP on 4-5-8 rainbow? Should I c-bet against unknown, if so how much?

And finally which opponents should I never c bet against. Sometimes I'll look at a player and see his FCB is 0/3 hands and I'm like "so far this guy hasn't folded to a c bet yet so I won't ever bluff c bet this guy until i get a bigger sample"

e.g.

4) Q-J on 2-3-7 two clubs IP against fish whose FCB is 0/3 hands.

5) 8-9 on 10-10-A two hearts OOP against fish whose FCB is 1/4 hands.


A lot of questions I know! I'd appreciate if you could answer as many as you can and refer to the numbers if necessary.
 
Aces2w1n

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1: If we are blind then cbet... We want to end the hand right there. In position we can afford to float. 2/3 of the pot.

2: we have a flush draw so betting is normally considered a value bet I believe. In a 3bet pot we can just check behind since the pot is already quite higher than previous situation. No need to bloat the pot and we can easily put us in a lot of bad spots here and miss our draws.

3:dry boards you probably should actually double barrel there...ppl will guess ur on AK but after a second bet they will be persuaded that u got QQ+ and then your hands a bluff. Becareful though because dry boards probably good for villain to have sets or 2pair if they show resistance.

4:value bet ur draw and besides you got two overs.

5:cbet isn't wise here..we need free cards here. we just burning money betting into a guy who won't fold but really 1/4 is not much of a read. But still not many turns or rivers will save us as well... We are the fish if we are cbetting. More so after a 3bet pot. Unless he doesn't have an Ace or a ten, we end up getting a miracle straight, our villain will have a higher straight... We lose everything.



I hope you get something out of that, i'm not the best at explaining but I try :)
 
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mottotom27

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Hi, thanks for that. I've been trying the 2/3 pot c bet and it seems reasonably effective at getting folds, perhaps more so than a 55-60% c bet enough to compensate for the extra cost, but hard to say for sure.

In 2 and 5 I just meant the board wasn't rainbow, not that we had a flush draw. Btw it's called a semi-bluff betting with a draw, not a value bet :)

Interesting comment in 3 about double barrelling with AK on semi-dry board in 3 bet pot. I might try that sometime, since I currently very rarely double barrel and hence probably need to find good spots to do them.

Agree in 5, we just don't have enough equity to bet against a calling station.
 
Mr.$t0k

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it all depends on the situation at the table and the players, it happened not long before that if you steal blinds then you nobody will believe as if you were tight igrakov here the chances increase dramatically and you will most likely ban zaberesh...
 
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mikeisanace

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It's about implied odds heads up and stack size

People sometimes get caught up in ego instead of incorrectly figuring the cash they can win. Assume you have you have 700 dollars and your opponent has 200 then it's worthless to risk anything with k-10 on a whiff board with only a few cards to improve yourself on the turn. Yes he can't stack you but it's about implied odds just check if he bets give it to him and move on. If however he and you are about even then c bet of 30% of the pot is prudent because A he might fold or B just call and if he calls then you can improve and potentially win a decent pot or all of his chips. Id recommend doing this with a pair minimum. The reason for this is he might call with a set as a trap and if you have a ten on a board of 10-3-9 and he holds 33 then you still have a chance. Turn comes a K your stoked he shoves you call see his set and river a k as a suck out. If you c bet and turned a k as one pair he might value bet the hell out of you and even a river king wont help you.
 
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donkcentralFF

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People sometimes get caught up in ego instead of incorrectly figuring the cash they can win. Assume you have you have 700 dollars and your opponent has 200 then it's worthless to risk anything with k-10 on a whiff board with only a few cards to improve yourself on the turn. Yes he can't stack you but it's about implied odds just check if he bets give it to him and move on. If however he and you are about even then c bet of 30% of the pot is prudent because A he might fold or B just call and if he calls then you can improve and potentially win a decent pot or all of his chips. Id recommend doing this with a pair minimum. The reason for this is he might call with a set as a trap and if you have a ten on a board of 10-3-9 and he holds 33 then you still have a chance. Turn comes a K your stoked he shoves you call see his set and river a k as a suck out. If you c bet and turned a k as one pair he might value bet the hell out of you and even a river king wont help you.

Do you know the likelihood of this happening?
 
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mikeisanace

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Do you know the likelihood of this happening?


Yes this was my point however a bluff c bet should require your hand to have potential unless you have ace high and have a good read and know your probably good now. People bluff c bet with air and get re raised often with air then your stuck to a blind chess match instead of having outs and or a pair as a back up.
 
vinnie

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Yes this was my point however a bluff c bet should require your hand to have potential unless you have ace high and have a good read and know your probably good now. People bluff c bet with air and get re raised often with air then your stuck to a blind chess match instead of having outs and or a pair as a back up.

If this is how you determine when to c-bet, you're c-betting WAY too infrequently. You're not c-betting because of what you have, you're c-betting because of what they don't have. The vast majority of the time, your opponent has nothing and isn't willing to fight for a pot where you're claiming to have something. If you're betting 40-60% pot (which is roughly where I aim, sometimes higher on some board textures), you only need them to fold 28-38% of the time to show an immediate profit. Even if they're calling/raising you 60% of the time and you lose every time that happens, you still profit from the bet.

"People bluff c bet with air and get re raised often with air"
No, they don't get reraised (raised) often. I have a small sample size, because I lost my old database, but my c-bets get raised less than 8% of the time. I'm pretty sure that most people with larger sample sizes will come in pretty close to that amount at the micro stakes. I can only assume that most of those raises are done with solid values because the amount of times you get raised is extremely low at the micros. You're not going to have a bunch of people at 5NL who will raise your c-bet with air because they expect you to be weak. It just isn't happening. It might happen in a session against a particular player, but long-term it's not something to worry about. Even if all those raises are being done with air, they're too rare to worry about. They can have those pots unless I flopped a monster. It goes back to the first point, c-bets don't need to work all the time and being raised instead of called doesn't really change that.

It is "nice" to have backup value with your hand. But, it's not needed. I only look for backup value when I am out-of-position and/or against 2+ other players. I might not c-bet at all in a multi-way pot, because getting away with stealing from 3 people or more is hard. And, that's what you're doing with your c-bets.
 
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Dorugremon

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Now I'll give examples of bluff c-betting possibilities which I get confused about.

1) K-10 on 5-8-9 rainbow, button vs blind (unknown), should I c-bet?

2) What about 6-7 on A-2-3 with two diamonds?

#1: Sometimes c-bet this one, and sometimes just check it back. The problem here is this is a flop that hits a BB defending range that will include lots of mid-sized connectors. It also hits a lot of BTN stealing ranges, but misses most pre-flop raising hands (Broadways). What you do depends on how sticky the BB is.

#2: I'd give this one up. (A,x) is a common BB defend hand. He can rep one by reraising your c-bet; he can float and lead the turn if a diamond rolls off, or even if one doesn't (repping a strong ace). Even if he's pure bluffing, your 7-high isn't likely to snap any bluff off here.

Another issue is what about in 3 bet pots

3) When AK misses OOP on 4-5-8 rainbow? Should I c-bet against unknown, if so how much?
You might want to try a c-bet here, but beware that your opponent just might figure you have exactly what you do have as there are more ways to hold Big Slick than pocket aces or kings. Add queens and he's a slight favorite to be holding a pocket pair over a Big Slick. He'll also know you aren't 3-betting with pocket 8s, 5s, or 4s (at least not very often). An opponent who isn't a nut scared little rabbit will call with any pair so long as an ace or king doesn't roll off. In situations where it's likely we both missed the flop, I'd go 1/2 pot, or maybe a little less, since if he'll fold for a 1/2 potter, he'll fold for a 1/3rd or 1/4th pot-sized bet.

And finally which opponents should I never c bet against. Sometimes I'll look at a player and see his FCB is 0/3 hands and I'm like "so far this guy hasn't folded to a c bet yet so I won't ever bluff c bet this guy until i get a bigger sample"
Calling stations. The only reason to bet into someone you know is going to call is for value.

4) Q-J on 2-3-7 two clubs IP against fish whose FCB is 0/3 hands.
His FCB is meaningless. It's very unlikely I'd ever c-bet a board like that. It missed almost every pre-flop raising hand except for pocket pairs. Your c-bet won't be believed.

5) 8-9 on 10-10-A two hearts OOP against fish whose FCB is 1/4 hands.
This is a flop that's definitely worth a c-bet, as it's an "all or nothing" flop. He's either got to have a ten or an ace to consider continuing. Any straights are gutterballs, hearts, even A-high, could be drawing dead already (unless he's got two to the Royal, in which case, he's drawing to one out) if (T,T) (A,A) or (A,T) is out.

Flops like this are worth taking a shot with a raise even if you have nothing.
 
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AcesDJD

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The number of players is my main consideration for cbetting at all. Beyond that, at a 2/5 game the players are generally good enough that you should bet the same size with your missed AK or whatever as you would with your aces. It sucks when you get checkraised, but if you're worried about that simply check the flop. In 1/2 you can often get away with betting a bit smaller with your missed hands, although you have to consider if you're opponents are 2/5 quality and just happen to be playing a smaller game. In my experience pot sized continuation bets are much less likely to be floated. 1/2 pot bets are often called, but you have to figure out how your game plays.
 
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