Blind versus blind (6max NLHE)

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nidal55

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Hi everyone. I was trying to balance the losses from the blinds per round and followed the tight ranges recommended.But why the blind versus blind range is so wide?arent we destined to play oop after we get called? Thats one.
The other thing im curious about what we are calling with from the bb if the sb has raised. Whats that range anyway? Well well play in position so i guess it should look like the CO's. But thats a guessing. Whats your opinion? Also what else do u propose in order to fix the blinds leak?
Thnx in advance
 
benevg

benevg

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you are apparently looking at some chart somewhere. since you did not bother to specify where that is, we could only guess.

that said, guesswork should also make assumptions:
- if it is you playing in the BB vs. a you playing in the SB
- and if the SB opening range is ~50% wide
- then the BB could 3bet ridiculously high amounts of the time. :D calling would depend on the folding frequencies to said 3bets.

all in all, either provide more information, or what is even better - understand that there is no single correct way to do things, it should all depend on the opposition you face.
 
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nidal55

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I thought i was pretty clear. Read well above then critisize. First of all yes i did find an opening bvb chart in bill vosti's book but my question was: Why is it almost as loose as the button's (little tighter) if we're about to play oop. Based on that well known ideal chart(referring to game experts) what are the classical combinations by experience that 3bet us when we sit in the sb(ive seen k10s 3betting much for instance) but even that was minor to me. But it is most basic for me to understand what is the range were calling the sb's raise on the bb since its kinda wide and we're playing inposition this time.U have the range u have the knowledge please enlighten me. If i knew everything i wouldnt post anything.
 
Cafeman

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Calm down, he didn't mean any offense.

BvB depends on quite a few factors.

If we're SB and it folds round to us, we can look at how the BB specifically plays in this spot and decide on our best action at that point. Same goes for the other way round.

We can usually defend the BB vs a SB open rather wide.

If you want specific comment on the well known chart (sorry I've never heard of it) then post it.
 
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nidal55

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Sorry its just ive never posted smthng and got a proper answer.They re always ironic and i never recall of getting a straight little sthng that could be useful. In his book Bill vosti proposes sthng like A5o+,45s+,22+,Axs,78o+,K8s+,108o+ and in other books ive come to the conclusion that our adjustments should be a little tighter than on the BTN. Even the "rather wide defense" u mentioned is really a clue for me and ill be happy to get more of them.
 
Cafeman

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If the BB has a high fold and a low 3bet to SB opens, then we can open wide like that of course. However, if he's a competant reg who'll flat and 3bet and make our life awkward post flop then we should consider opening a lot tighter.

Sorry I can't give you a more specific answer, because 1) I don't know all the answers and 2) it depends on so many factors.

I use a pop up on my HUD (HM2) for this specific situation (BvB) and tend to base my decision on that, combined with postflop/overall tendencies of BB.
 
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nidal55

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Thnx cafeman i got out of line i think because of my frustration for not knowing basic stuff and leaking in the heart of my strategy.I was feeling bad after tightening up and loosing 1/3 or more of my winnings on the blinds. Pure profit must be a combination of great consideration of all the small factors and building up solidly on a range with patience. Ill start with that and i hope someday i can return the favour back to other cardschat members.
 
youregoodmate

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loosing 1/3 or more of my winnings on the blinds.

Just so you know, even the best players lose money playing out of the blinds. The whole aim is to minimise our losses from the blinds.

Check your winrate out of the blinds, if your BB is better than -100bb/100 and your SB is better than -50bb/100 then you are 'profitable' from those positions.
 
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ScottishMatt

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Shit I must be a beast then, I win from the SB and am -9.99/100 from the BB. Meh small sample and running good always helps I suppose.


As to the OP, a decent strategy is to open the small blind with the same range as your CO open. This seems to work well for me. For the BB it really depends, most of the time I find that the SB limps so I make an isolation raise with my BTN range. I feel the blinds are the one area where you shouldn't confine yourself to a specific range, simply reacting to your opponents tendencies seems to be the best strategy.
 
Cafeman

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a decent strategy is to open the small blind with the same range as your CO open.
Yeah that seems like a decent default to start with.

Just checked mine for this month and I'm -9bb/100 from the SB and -37bb/100 from the BB, only 25kish hands though.
 
youregoodmate

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11k hands for me, +2bb/100 from the sb and -41bb/100 from the bb. Would love to keep it like that!

I dont think I defend against steals enough from the bb.
 
benevg

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sorry if my reply seemed ironic. it is just that a "very famous" book is apparently not famous enough to have reached a lot of people (me and cafeman for example). and there really are a lot of "famous" books. thus, it is always good to post exactly what you mean or what you are looking at when you ask specific questions about it.

in addition, any range should be dynamic - if you use the same range to open against a 7/5 nit and against a 70/50 whale, you are doing something wrong. the same thing applies to calling - if the SB opens 100% when folded to, you can probably start 3betting or calling with ~70-80% of your range without it being overly much. if they open 15%, then you ought to be waaaaaay more careful and tight. if the SB is a complete unknown, as you seem to make it, then the first couple times i assume they are at least somewhat tight and play accordingly.

If i knew everything i wouldnt post anything.
this is probably right, but nobody knows everything, thankfully. the whole idea is to learn to ask questions which make sense to the people asked. a good poker question normally starts with a short description of your opponent(s), then the stacks you each have (many pots would play very differently 30bb deep vs. 100bb deep vs. 250bb deep) and any relevant reads or history.

and as others have said before me, playing in the blinds and losing money is not necessarily a leak. it is hard to make money in the blinds. if you do it regularly, chances are you are way too good for your opponents. the whole aim is to lose less in the blinds... or at least less than if you would just fold.
 
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nidal55

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Thnx beveng. Sorry i got mad too i was maybe angry i couldnt get a relief from $50 losses after 12-table sessions just from the blinds. I was stacking one opponent per time on every table and watched myself winning like $70 instead of $150 e.g. and could not understand the reason. Its like running a business and instead of winning a lot ur just getting by cause the bills and the rent are too high. But i know the water and power of this business is not so expensive. So ill put in volume in the beggining leaving the blinds almost alone and see how it works.First 5k hands look great but ill try after 50k comparing with the winrates stated above.
Im going to open a new thread february 1st in brags and beats giving stats about my game in 16nlhe. Im looking forward for further analysis over hands and stats for a 50-70K run within the month. Any help will be highly appreciated.
 
Cafeman

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When you do, link to it from this thread so I can follow it.
 
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