Blind defending, 3 Betting and flatting

youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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Okay I know this is going to be quite vague.

Assume a standard 6max reg opens up on the button, hes playing 22/18.

What type of hands should we be 3Bing for value and as a bluff and which should we flat with?

I generally struggle with this and only value 3B the obv hands like AQ+ 99+

My bluff range is a lot smaller, generally consisting of JT, QJ etc.

How would these ranges change against a CO open?

How would these ranges change against a SB open, are we 3Bing or flatting more frequently?
 
benevg

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this is where positional stats really matter. if someone is playing 22/18 on the button, do not bother 3betting :D

basically, you need to play the players and their tendencies more than any cards you might hold. so someone open 75% on the button but only 25 in the CO? heck, 3bet ATC when he opens that button, you are +ev there ;) etc, etc...
 
youregoodmate

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Assuming we were playing a random where positional stats havent converged.

Atm I dont have a big database, mainly because I keep shifting limits so Im constantly up against unknowns.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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do you know what merged and polarised ranges are?

assuming you do but you didnt use the terminology so just asking.
 
youregoodmate

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Yeah I think so, so which would you prefer using from the blinds? Merged because we flop better oop? Or am I getting the wrong idea altogether?
 
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orangepeeleo

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If he's a random and your basically readless then just 3b a pure nit value range until you can see how much he's stealing etc

Nobody can give you any sort of ranges here because this is def something that needs some stats/history, not a hell of a lot, but something. I use RFI stats to show me how pos aware someone is, it seems to paint a picture pretty quickly imo

I'm not the most knowledgable person when it comes to this, but my bluff range when i think someone can fold is like Axs, SC's prob 56s+, PP's 22-88, hands like ATo AJo just stuff that I dont think is strong enough to call in spots where we have decent FE, but can smash a flop if called.

I've not though much about a value range for people who arent folding, so will be interested in others answers here, but like 99+ AQs+ KQ??? Seems real nitty though so could maybe widen it, also depending on how much they fold to cbets in 3bet pots, you have to think of that too because then ATC might be profitable considering anyone left to act.

Theres just a LOT of variables to this subject.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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general consensus is..

polarised vs people who fold a lot and merged vs people who flat a lot.. vs unknowns we're assuming that they open wide in LP and fold to 3bets a lot until stats show us otherwise so the nuts and SC's/SA's for our polarised range.

merged is probably the range you're using now, so that fine.

F3B becomes a more important stat at 25nl+.

but because of people wide opening ranges we also need to have a wide flatting range.. talked with Ack about this before and we need to be flatting hands like K8o/ATo etc when they're opening so wide OTB.

so yeah, polarise vs regs and flat with hands that do well against their opening range but not their 3bet flatting range.
 
youregoodmate

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Cheers that the answer I was looking for. That makes a lot of sense. Isnt flatting K8o a bit wide tho?
 
acky100

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Its just too general a question to answer, it depends on how the reg plays too, how often he folds to 3bets, 4bets, opening frequency, opening size...
 
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ScottishMatt

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Sorry for the noob question but I haven't even heard the term "polarised vs merged" ranges.

I'm going to take a guess that polarised would mean 3-betting with the nuts or a bluff, but a bluff with the chance to flop high equity? So if a nit opened the button we can 3 bet our aces or our suited connectors knowing that if he re pops we can let go of the bluffs but if he flats we have a chance to flop enough equity to continue?

As for merged would we consider a wider range against a fish opening the button? Like suited broadways, AQ/AJ, 99+?

Thing is I normally fold or 3 bet from the blinds and think the ranges could be a major leak in my game. Sorry for thread hi-jack.
 
acky100

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Yeah you're right about polarised and merged matt
 
youregoodmate

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Sorry for thread hi-jack.

Dont worry I need input like this. I think my blind play is a real leak atm. Problem is when there are so many variables nobody can say what they right play is, so I dont know if Im right to be 3 betting JT etc.

In general I just tend to fold in the blinds, cba with hands like KT even against a button open. Whilever Im unsure as to how to go about them then I think folding is best.
 
benevg

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Whilever Im unsure as to how to go about them then I think folding is best.
this is by far the safest method out there. folding is always 0 ev, so at least you're never losing by doing this :) when you are sufficiently on top of the rest of your game for this to start bothering you, maybe you will be able to realize what you need to change and perhaps to actually start changing it bit by bit.
 
acky100

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this is by far the safest method out there. folding is always 0 ev, so at least you're never losing by doing this :) when you are sufficiently on top of the rest of your game for this to start bothering you, maybe you will be able to realize what you need to change and perhaps to actually start changing it bit by bit.

This is kind of wrong, folding any hand in the blinds is -1bb/100 or -0.5bb/100 If you can call and lose 0.9bb/100 in the bb then its +EV

i know folding is always "0 EV" how youre explaining it, but its an easy way to have a big leak by just thinking oh KJo, i'll take the 0EV route and fold. i hope i make sense here cause we're both kind of right i just suck at explaining :)
 
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benevg

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This is kind of wrong, folding any hand in the blinds is -1bb/100 or -0.5bb/100 If you can call and lose 0.9bb/100 in the bb then its +EV

i know folding is always "0 EV" how youre explaining it, but its an easy way to have a big leak by just thinking oh KJo, i'll take the 0EV route and fold. i hope i make sense here cause we're both kind of right i just suck at explaining :)
oh, i completely agree with you, but also stand by my point. being 0 ev in general is a leak, there is no doubt about that. yet, if you have no idea what to do with hands like that OOP, then calling is likely to be worse than just folding, as you are putting money in the pot with just a vague idea of maybe making some of it back.

that is why i also said that when he grows enough as a player to start being bothered by this, he should start working on it. you can't fix all your leaks at the same time, you know?
 
acky100

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yeah sure its just like folding KQs to a 3bet button vs bb is 0 EV but its retarded, i think folding KTo to a button open is equally as retarded :) I agree though!
 
Jackle43

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Dont we want to be 3betting a lot more then flatting though? This is something that has always confused me a bit especially with everyone saying that just calling is a weak play.
Lately I have taken this into consideration and I have been playing more fold or raise tight yet really aggressive poker and it has been working for me quite well. Though I still get confused with the whole thing.
So can someone explain to me when am I 3betting light haha
At the moment im 3betting (depending on player but mainly) AJ+ and 88+ unless a complete NIT opens or something...And a few complete bluff 3bets in position
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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Sorry for the noob question but I haven't even heard the term "polarised vs merged" ranges.

I'm going to take a guess that polarised would mean 3-betting with the nuts or a bluff, but a bluff with the chance to flop high equity? So if a nit opened the button we can 3 bet our aces or our suited connectors knowing that if he re pops we can let go of the bluffs but if he flats we have a chance to flop enough equity to continue?

As for merged would we consider a wider range against a fish opening the button? Like suited broadways, AQ/AJ, 99+?

Thing is I normally fold or 3 bet from the blinds and think the ranges could be a major leak in my game. Sorry for thread hi-jack.

^^
 
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ScottishMatt

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Another question popped into my head concerning 3 betting and position. I would normally 3 bet AQ all the time from any position except maybe UTG+1, however I think it would be more profitable to flat in plenty of occasions, usually ones where we have position as I don't mind a float + turn bet.

So for example, like my last post we 3 bet as a bluff or with the nuts vs a nit, this wont change whether we have position or not. So in short, we use polarised vs a nit all the time.

However if a players stats and/or style don't warrant a mandatory line of action, can we use the polarised and merged options based on our position?

Sorry if this isn't very clear, quite a haphazard attempt at putting my thoughts forth.
 
fletchdad

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Nothing to say (yet), but subbing. Good thread.
 
Bubbles

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Another question popped into my head concerning 3 betting and position. I would normally 3 bet AQ all the time from any position except maybe UTG+1, however I think it would be more profitable to flat in plenty of occasions, usually ones where we have position as I don't mind a float + turn bet.

So for example, like my last post we 3 bet as a bluff or with the nuts vs a nit, this wont change whether we have position or not. So in short, we use polarised vs a nit all the time.

However if a players stats and/or style don't warrant a mandatory line of action, can we use the polarised and merged options based on our position?

Sorry if this isn't very clear, quite a haphazard attempt at putting my thoughts forth.
Not exactly sure what your point is here, but i agree with flatting AQ more than 3 betting. So many players love to 3 bet, but I perosnally feel that keeping a weak playe rin the pot with position is more valuable than 3 betting.

Ofcourse this is all situational and if a player is known to call very wide 3 bets, than by all means 3 bet the crap out of them for value. but against regs and unkowns, flatitng pre with premiums is often times +ev.

I feel that the average player is solid pre-flop and our edge isnt all that much. Its pre flop where a better player can begin to exploit weaknesses and has a much better edge against most players
 
youregoodmate

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I'd flat AQ way more frequently in pos than out.
 
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ScottishMatt

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Ok, I'll rephrase that last post a bit better.

What I was getting at was...If we have position should we be using polarised 3-bet ranges against every opponent other than a fish in which case we would use merged. Basically should I be 3-betting the MP opener when I'm on the button with 89s, a hand which I would normally fold unless I knew villains game really well.

Thoughts?
 
Cafeman

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should I be 3-betting the MP opener when I'm on the button with 89s


Thoughts?

There are never hard and fast rules, but let me throw this into the mix. Call 98s and 3bet A6o. Shame to waste the value of 98s IP dontcha think?
 
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orangepeeleo

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Man, every time a 3bet discussion comes up I realise how little I know lol

I'd rather 3bet 89s than A6o! :(

Reasons being that if we do see a flop, 89s can smash it and be a well disguised hand, kind of a 3bet light-semibluff lol
 
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