My BIG problem switching from 9max to 6max

Hi guys. I am a winning poker player at 9max but not at 6max . I want to learn 6max, I want to be good at it. I'm sick of waiting and waiting to win something at 9max. When I started I studied Blackrain's book "crushing the micros" and it helped me alot but that's for 9max. This is the second time I tried to play 6max, and can't win (I'm talking about 5nl and 10nl, 20k hands). I just can't win. I know that 6max is more aggro (witch I like) and I know that 6max has more fishes, but I get more coolers, my redline is going more down. What is the big difference? What do I have to do? Can someone please show me some ideal TAG stats for 6max and a starting hand chart, recommend a good book or something? Thank You!

Yes, 6max is quite different. We get into many more marginal spots , variance is more painful, but the games are more fun then nit-ring.

A few good books for you to check out, the first one is a bit dated but the concepts are solid. Also check out the VOTW (microchushers thread) if you haven't already. Also hand reading is more challenging, so definitely work on hand reading skills.

1.) Ryan Fee's 6 max Guide
2.) Andrew Siedman aka Baluga Whale (Easy Game)
3.) How to read Hands - Ed Miller


Several more goodies out there but ryan fee's guide is a really solid read, here is a linky:

http://www.gamblingsystem.biz/books/2p2NL6max.pdf

Thank You!

I also recommend taking a look at your stats (such as VPIP, PFR) and compare them to recommended 6-max value. They are going to be different than full ring.

I really dont think the game changed that much, play normal 6 max strat for the 6 seats and play tighter for the 3 new ones?
its all poker

aero87 said:

I also recommend taking a look at your stats (such as VPIP, PFR) and compare them to recommended 6-max value.

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Yes I know but what stats are good for 6max (TAG)? I played about 20k hands with: 21.6/19.7, AGG 5, 3bet 5.80, Cbet 85, FCbet 67, Tbet 31, FTbet 60, ATS 42. I know it's a small sample but should I continue with these stats?

You should still be able to apply what you have read in "Crushing the microstakes" for 6 max. i think he even mentions it in the book.

Just comparing what i see in Leakbuster's recommended ranges vs your stats. Your c-bet % is pretty high, and your F2c-bet is also on the high side. Your turn c-bet % is too low, and your ATS just on the higher end.

Not sure if you use HM or PT, but maybe post your overall and positional stats, and you i'm sure you can get some more feedback, and will give a better look at what you are doing.

remus_ny said:

Yes I know but what stats are good for 6max (TAG)? I played about 20k hands with: 21.6/19.7, AGG 5, 3bet 5.80, Cbet 85, FCbet 67, Tbet 31, FTbet 60, ATS 42. I know it's a small sample but should I continue with these stats?

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these look good. just tone down AGG a bit and prob 3b more from the blinds vs guys opening wide and folding lots. remember as soon as someone is folding 67% of the time or more to 3bs, you can 3b to 10bb profitably with ATC. maybe try folding to Cbets a little less if you can hand read half decently. 67% is far too high imo, both since people can fire flops and youre folding most, and cos they wont continue bluffing when you actually have a hand since youre so obviously strong when you call a Cbet

It takes a lot of time to readjust. 20k hands is not much. Don't start overplaying because it is shorthand. Consider staying at 9max. plenty of money there

Isn't 6 max 9max without the first 3 obligatory nit seats? Just play as npyou would from mp onwards in FR

RodneyC86 said:

Isn't 6 max 9max without the first 3 obligatory nit seats? Just play as npyou would from mp onwards in FR

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spoken like someone who has never played 6 max. and definitely not mutli-tabled.


The game is very different. Same core concepts apply, but the game moves much faster, blinds are much quicker of course, and hand reading goes into overdrive do to the need to play more with lighter hands.


read those materials and it will help tremendously. The games have changed quite a bit from when Ryan fee wrote that guide btw, but the core concepts hold true.

taaron said:

spoken like someone who has never played 6 max. and definitely not mutli-tabled.


The game is very different. Same core concepts apply, but the game moves much faster, blinds are much quicker of course, and hand reading goes into overdrive do to the need to play more with lighter hands.


read those materials and it will help tremendously. The games have changed quite a bit from when Ryan fee wrote that guide btw, but the core concepts hold true.

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True hehe I just started 6maxing last week. Up to 5nl now.
Still does feel the same to me as FR minus 3 early seats where you pretty much play face up. of course more marginal spots, we all know late position plays leads to more marginal spots

The thing to remember, i mean, don't get me wrong i'm a massive fish; but there are a whole different genre of spots to learn to exploit.

Just learning the flow of 6m is not neccesarily difficult, but there are plenty of substantial differences. If i can lend any extra help i'm happy to do so, but those reading materials cover it better than i could.

I don't know if this has been said already but I once heard something simple talking about hand ranges when comparing full ring to 6max and this person said it is the same to just remove your utg range.

Harrington on Online Cash Games; 6-Max No-Limit Hold 'em
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Harrington-Online-Games-6-Max-No-Limit/dp/1880685493"]Harrington on Online Cash Games; 6-Max No-Limit Hold 'em: Dan Harrington, Bill Robertie: 9781880685495: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

I didn't play 6max often.But I know it is very different.Playing 6max means you have more time in BB/SB.I am not good at playing SB/BB.So I found I am not good at playing 6max.

all real successful pros play 6max, more fishes, more agg, more hands, more money. And who says that 6max is FR-first 3 pos, don't know what he is talking. It's more than that. I quit 9max (even if I win there) I want to start learning 6max no turning back now.

remus_ny said:

all real successful pros play 6max, more fishes, more agg, more hands, more money. And who says that 6max is FR-first 3 pos, don't know what he is talking. It's more than that. I quit 9max (even if I win there) I want to start learning 6max no turning back now.

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Unless I'm missing something why should I play 6max any different than just pretending the first 3 seats folded in a FR hand? Card distribution ought to be similar. No scratch that, it's the same random.

I need some examples why really. Cause of late my 6maxing pretending every time the first 3 seats fold I get fairly good looking preflop stats for 6 max. Sure, I understand postflop play is far more given the widening of ranges but my argument that it ought to play similar to any FR hand when first 3 folded should stand?

On needing to play looser to not let blinds eat you alive...aren't we also on the button 50% more often in 6max than in FR? So I think that evens things out.

Then though, there's the argument that 6 maxxers are more comfy mixing it up bvb and fight back more vs steals.

remus_ny said:

all real successful pros play 6max, more fishes, more agg, more hands, more money. And who says that 6max is FR-first 3 pos, don't know what he is talking. It's more than that. I quit 9max (even if I win there) I want to start learning 6max no turning back now.

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Are you means more fishes in 6max?I thought it was more fish in 9max than 6max before.For 6max is more difficult to play.Am I wrong?

RodneyC86 said:

Unless I'm missing something why should I play 6max any different than just pretending the first 3 seats folded in a FR hand? Card distribution ought to be similar. No scratch that, it's the same random.

I need some examples why really. Cause of late my 6maxing pretending every time the first 3 seats fold I get fairly good looking preflop stats for 6 max. Sure, I understand postflop play is far more given the widening of ranges but my argument that it ought to play similar to any FR hand when first 3 folded should stand?

On needing to play looser to not let blinds eat you alive...aren't we also on the button 50% more often in 6max than in FR? So I think that evens things out.

Then though, there's the argument that 6 maxxers are more comfy mixing it up bvb and fight back more vs steals.

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Card distribution isn't the same, but it's similar. Sure there's more to 6 max than pretending the first 3 players folded in a FR game, but that analogy is pretty good for newish players trying to make the switch. The replies you got to that comment are a little harsh.

6 max is tougher overall. You have to play more actual poker since you can't nit it up as easily as you could among a larger table. Imagine playing 2 or 3 handed and folding pre 87-93% of the time... heh. Same idea. This point's been made here a couple times already though I think. It'll make you a better poker player, in any case.

And yes, fee's 6 max guide is ancient and yet still decent in spite of that (if you're fresh out of the box this is). Easy Game (3rd edition), great also. There's quite a lot of solid material out there for beginner to intermediate 6 max players. Check out The Poker Blueprint or Small Stakes No Limit Holdem.

To kworm, there is more fish in FR play. They're also harder to exploit as you'll be playing fewer hands. Cross your fingers that someone else doesn't happen to stack them first.

Let's see if I can find any other comments in this topic that should get a response. Not much else to say I guess. OP's flop and turn bet frequencies are too far apart, even for 5NL or 10NL.

remus_ny said:

Yes I know but what stats are good for 6max (TAG)? I played about 20k hands with: 21.6/19.7, AGG 5, 3bet 5.80, Cbet 85, FCbet 67, Tbet 31, FTbet 60, ATS 42. I know it's a small sample but should I continue with these stats?

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Your AGG is waaaay to high. This is a big leak because postflop is where the money are made but also is where the money are lost.
"Crushing the micros" applyes here as it applyes at FR witch makes me think that you did not quite understood the book. The book does not explain 6-max and FR in different ways. It explain situations on how to play against certain opponents . Playing in position against a fish at 6-max is the same thing as plaing in position against a fish at FR.
That thing with more AGGRO at 6-max is just math . You do not play other type of hands. You play the same hands as you played in the last 6 positions at FR and after you see the flop you take the same decisions against villans range.

swingro said:

You play the same hands as you played in the last 6 positions at FR and after you see the flop you take the same decisions against villans range.

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well for example in "crushing the micros book" blackrain said that I have to Cbet TPSK on the flop and then if I get called I have to pot control, and make a decision on the river. And ryan fee said bet bet bet until you get raised even shove on the river (of course it depends on what type of villain but I'm talking here in general). Trust me i understood that book perfectly + I have a pretty good winrate at FR (I just don't want to wait and wait until I give a cooler to somebody to win a decent pot). I've finished ryan fee's book and it already helped me alot in my game, I'm working now on "Easy Game 3rd Ed." Another example: at FR I can steal alot easier, but at 6max people are defending more and if I open from LP with the same ranges my stats jump up to something like 26/22 (witch is too laggy for a beginner of 6max). The books are different - my opinion.

It was an advice . Take it or leave it.

As to whether or not more fish play FR or 6max; I personally don't know, ppl who have switched and now play FR tell me there are more fish tham 6max.

Alot of the preferences are also based on personality, I like the fast paced style 6m offers. I've multi-tabled as many as 10 tables of FR and still felt bored. As someone who has played both formats though i can definitely say that there are substantiated differences.

OP, I'm glad that Fee's guide and the microstakes guide were helpful. Andrew Siedman's book is solid, tbh I re-read stuff all the time that i never digested or understood as well as I do now.

Its always that way though, lol. A year from now I'll look back and realize how bad i was.