***Beyond NLHE -- February Thread***

[skoldpadda]

An important concept is well illustrated in this example from a session tonight. Look the hand over and tell me what you think. The sims for this may surprise you. Hand #18082967776
7 Card Stud *High-Low* ($2/$4), Ante $0.40, Bring-In $0.50

badabing71 (Seat 1): $89.05
pcmjra (Seat 2): $22.15
Phatso (Seat 3): $29.55
perrytau23 (Seat 4): $67.50
walkrite24 (Seat 5): $88.80
skoldpadda9 (Seat 6): $151.55
Tsien (Seat 7): $135.75
tortuga80 (Seat 8): $224.60

*3rd Street* - (1.60 SB)

badabing71: xx xx Kc___completes___raises___calls
pcmjra: xx xx Qs___folds
Phatso: xx xx 2s___*brings-in*___folds
perrytau23: xx xx Td___folds
walkrite24: xx xx Jd___calls___calls___calls___calls
skoldpadda9: 5s Ah 7s___calls___raises___raises
Tsien: xx xx Kd___folds
tortuga80: xx xx 9h___calls___calls___calls

*4th Street* - (17.85 SB)

badabing71: xx xx Kc 7d___*bets*___raises
walkrite24: xx xx Jd 4s___calls___calls
skoldpadda9: 5s Ah 7s 8d___raises___calls
tortuga80: xx xx 9h 7c___raises___calls

*5th Street* - (16.93 BB)

badabing71: xx xx Kc 7d 5c___checks___calls___calls
walkrite24: xx xx Jd 4s Qh___checks___calls___calls
skoldpadda9: 5s Ah 7s 8d Th___bets___raises___calls
tortuga80: xx xx 9h 7c Ks___*checks*___raises___raises

*6th Street* - (32.93 BB)

badabing71: xx xx Kc 7d 5c Js___folds
walkrite24: xx xx Jd 4s Qh Qc___*bets*___calls
skoldpadda9: 5s Ah 7s 8d Th Tc___calls___calls
tortuga80: xx xx 9h 7c Ks 4c___raises

*River* - (38.93 BB)

walkrite24: xx xx Jd 4s Qh Qc xx___*bets*
skoldpadda9: 5s Ah 7s 8d Th Tc 2c___calls
tortuga80: xx xx 9h 7c Ks 4c xx___calls

*Total pot:* (41.93 BB - $167.70)

 

[nevadanick]

subscribing

 

[slycbnew]

Howdy guys!

I'm subscribing to so many monthly threads - and i never remember to check for the new threads at the beginning of the month... lol

skoldpadda, I'm such a know-nothing about stud8 that I'm simply looking forward to your explanation of what's interesting here. As a total stud8 dummy, I'm assuming once we call fourth street, there's nothing that's going to make us fold before the river. I assume your raise on fifth street is to knock out one or both of badabing and tortuga - I'm surprised by tortuga's raise on sixth street.

Beyond that, I'm kinda clueless - but looking forward to your description!

 

[c9h13no3]

I assume your raise on fifth street is to knock out one or both of badabing and tortuga

He wants to keep them in. They already called two bets cold, so raising here will never fold them out. He's trying to keep the pot as multiway as possible, and as big as possible.

Drawing for half in a heads up pot is suicide, you're just trying to get your $ back. Being the only low draw in a 4-way pot is pretty sweet tho. And his hand isn't totally 1 way since backdoor straight draws and the possibility of pairing aces (to make aces up) gives him high side equity.

 

[skoldpadda]

Being the only low draw in a 4-way pot is pretty sweet tho.

Winnar!

Given the action, here are the hands I put these guys on: all high hands and of the few low cards that come on 4th or 5th, I don't need most for my low draw. Best low draw even 3 way will be an equity favorite (i.e. have >33% equity) as long as their draw is live. In this hand, not only is it 4 way, but I'm also the only one going for low. To make this a good play I only need >25% equity (actually less given the dead money/pot to that point) and how much do you think I have intuitively? Answer below. As you can see, I could have even jammed 6th with only a card to come.

Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: Qs2sTdKd
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
5sAh7s 36.73% 41,911 43,326 22 381,871 240
QdJhJd 9.52% 26,122 88,161 5 0 0
9s9d9h 44.87% 132,516 405,874 7 0 0
K * |Kc 8.88% 21,242 62,612 20 23,953 240

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/simulate.jsp?g=s8&d=Qs2sTdKd&h1=5sAh7s8d&h2=QdJhJd4s&h3=9s9d9h7c&h4=K+*+|Kc7d&h5=

Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: Qs2sTdKd
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
5sAh7s8d 43.12% 39,107 41,124 105 469,042 786
QdJhJd4s 7.58% 11,803 79,115 0 0 0
9s9d9h7c 41.52% 68,195 430,064 71 0 0
K * |Kc7d 7.78% 9,269 49,589 40 35,321 786



Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: Qs2sTdKd
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
5sAh7s8dTh 35.02% 17,249 19,768 71 394,562 2,923
QdJhJd4sQh 11.38% 21,469 115,130 0 0 0
9s9d9h7cKs 44.19% 91,555 438,764 0 0 0
K * |Kc7d5c 9.40% 10,544 26,267 71 81,024 2,923

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/simulate.jsp?g=s8&d=Qs2sTdKd&h1=5sAh7s8dTh&h2=QdJhJd4sQh&h3=9s9d9h7cKs&h4=K+*+|Kc7d5c&h5=

Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: Qs2sTdKd
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
5sAh7s8dThTc 26.02% 0 0 0 312,217 0
QdJhJd4sQhQc 71.06% 276,773 575,915 0 0 0
9s9d9h7cKs4c 2.92% 11,010 24,085 0 0 0
K * |Kc7d5cJs 0.00% 0 0 0 0 0

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/simulate.jsp?g=s8&d=Qs2sTdKd&h1=5sAh7s8dThTc&h2=QdJhJd4sQhQc&h3=9s9d9h7cKs4c&h4=K+*+|Kc7d5cJs&h5=

 

[skoldpadda]

Your Stud 8 hand of the night... discuss.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

Seat 2: $55
Seat 3: $69.50
Seat 5: $154.50
Seat 6: $67
Hero: $158.50
Seat 8: $243

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 2♦___brings-in___folds
Seat 3: xx xx Q♦___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 9♠___folds
Seat 6: xx xx T♦___folds
Hero: 5♠ A♠ 4♥___completes
Seat 8: xx xx J♥___calls

4th Street - (3.33 SB)

Hero: 5♠ A♠ 4♥ 6♠___bets
Seat 8: xx xx J♥ K♥___checks___calls

5th Street - (2.67 BB)

Hero: 5♠ A♠ 4♥ 6♠ 6♥___raises
Seat 8: xx xx J♥ K♥ K♦___bets___calls

6th Street - (6.67 BB)

Hero: 5♠ A♠ 4♥ 6♠ 6♥ J♠___bets
Seat 8: xx xx J♥ K♥ K♦ 4♣___checks___calls

River - (8.67 BB)

Hero: 5♠ A♠ 4♥ 6♠ 6♥ J♠ 7♣___bets
Seat 8: xx xx J♥ K♥ K♦ 4♣ xx___checks___calls

Total pot: (10.67 BB - $64)

Results (in white):[color:white]

Total pot $64 | Rake $3

Note: this site shuffles the hole cards.

[/color]

 

[c9h13no3]

If Seat 8 is sane, I can't think of a range we're ahead of on 6th. And 5th seems pretty thin (we're a 51% favorite against his range).

Sure, betting 6th we keep our range stronger, and we're unlikely to get raised, but if we check we'll get a freebie some non-zero percentage of the time. And sometimes we'll be able to check/raise the river if he bets 6th.

 

[c9h13no3]

Hey skold, could you do a Razz session analysis for me? I'll prolly make a video of me analyzing my own play, and ship it to you to see if there's any flaws in my logic.

Recently there have been some real juicy Razz games being played at Ultimate Bet, but the regs are eating into my profitz

 

[skoldpadda]

Hey skold, could you do a Razz session analysis for me?

No problem.

 

[skoldpadda]

Speaking of razz... sometimes it's ugly!

full tilt poker Game #18185176999: Table Dover Glen - $10/$20 Ante $1.50 - Limit Razz - 18:28:52 ET - 2010/02/04
Seat 1: luckyML97ft ($265.50)
Seat 2: Mido87 ($509.50)
Seat 3: skoldpadda9 ($369.50)
Seat 5: CyberCow ($76)
Seat 6: TooPare ($273.50)
Seat 7: gregwawa ($721)
Seat 8: magicien ($186)
Mido87 antes $1.50
skoldpadda9 antes $1.50
TooPare antes $1.50
luckyML97ft antes $1.50
gregwawa antes $1.50
CyberCow antes $1.50
magicien antes $1.50
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to luckyML97ft [9d]
Dealt to Mido87 [Ah]
Dealt to skoldpadda9 [5c As] [2s]
Dealt to CyberCow [7c]
Dealt to TooPare [Ks]
Dealt to gregwawa [4s]
Dealt to magicien [6s]
TooPare is high with [Ks]
TooPare brings in for $3
gregwawa folds
magicien completes it to $10
luckyML97ft folds
Mido87 raises to $20
skoldpadda9 raises to $30
CyberCow folds
TooPare folds
magicien raises to $40
Mido87 calls $20
skoldpadda9 calls $10
Razz Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: 97K4
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
(6-6-6) 32.13% 191,467 2,640
(8-8-A) 31.27% 186,178 2,943
5A2 36.59% 217,826 3,485
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to Mido87 [Ah] [Ac]
Dealt to skoldpadda9 [5c As 2s] [Js]
Dealt to magicien [6s] [6c]
skoldpadda9 bets $10
magicien calls $10
Mido87 calls $10
Razz Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: 97K4
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
(6-6-6)6 30.54% 182,918 591
(8-8-A)A 31.95% 191,029 1,346
5A2J 37.51% 224,372 1,426
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to Mido87 [Ah Ac] [Kc]
Dealt to skoldpadda9 [5c As 2s Js] [2c]
Dealt to magicien [6s 6c] [Kd]
Mido87 checks
skoldpadda9 bets $20
magicien calls $20
Mido87 calls $20
Razz Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: 97K4
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
(6-6-6)6K 25.80% 154,726 149
(8-8-A)AK 26.99% 161,708 480
5A2J2 47.21% 283,003 498
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to Mido87 [Ah Ac Kc] [2d]
Dealt to skoldpadda9 [5c As 2s Js 2c] [9s]
Dealt to magicien [6s 6c Kd] [9h]
Mido87 bets $20
luckyML97ft has been disconnected
skoldpadda9 calls $20
luckyML97ft has reconnected
magicien calls $20
Razz Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: 97K4
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
(6-6-6)6K9 20.89% 125,284 122
(8-8-A)AK2 41.11% 246,478 359
5A2J29 38.00% 227,767 461
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to skoldpadda9 [5c As 2s Js 2c 9s] [9c]
Mido87 checks
skoldpadda9 checks
magicien checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Mido87 shows [Qh 5d Ah Ac Kc 2d 4c] Q,5,4,2,A
skoldpadda9 shows [9c 5c 2s Js 2c 9s As] J,9,5,2,A
magicien mucks
skoldpadda9 wins the pot ($280.50) with J,9,5,2,A
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $283.50 | Rake $3
Seat 1: luckyML97ft folded on 3rd St.
Seat 2: Mido87 showed [Qh 5d Ah Ac Kc 2d 4c] and lost with Q,5,4,2,A
Seat 3: skoldpadda9 showed [9c 5c 2s Js 2c 9s As] and won ($280.50) with J,9,5,2,A
Seat 5: CyberCow folded on 3rd St.
Seat 6: TooPare folded on 3rd St.
Seat 7: gregwawa folded on 3rd St.
Seat 8: magicien mucked [8s 8d 6s 6c Kd 9h Ad] - K,9,8,6,A

 

[Marginal]

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.10 BB (3 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Mcdonald'sRep (Button) ($20.92)
SB ($8.95)
BB ($7.71)

Preflop: Mcdonald'sRep is Button with 4

, Q

, A

, 8

Mcdonald'sRep bets $0.41, 1 fold, BB calls $0.31

Flop: ($0.93) 9

, 9

, 7

(2 players)
BB checks, Mcdonald'sRep bets $0.50, BB raises to $2.30, Mcdonald'sRep raises to $4.70


Thoughts on the bluff, I do not think I would not need to put in more money than this. He is a ridiculous slow playing monkey. By slow play I do not mean c/r big hands, I mean check 800 streets and then c/r on the river. I just do not think he is going to do this with anything but a bluff.

 

[skoldpadda]

BB is so short he's pot committed with his raise to 2.3 so I don't like the bluff.

 

[Marginal]

BB is so short he's pot committed with his raise to 2.3 so I don't like the bluff.

He is definitely not pot committed. 10/10 to KK can never call this.

 

[c9h13no3]

SIWAS?

*** RIVER ***
Hero - Pocket [Ac 6s As 2h 3c 8d 3h]
Reg #1 - Pocket [H H Ad 10h 3s 7h H]
Hero - Checks
Reg #1 - Bets $10
Hero - Raises $20 to $20
Reg #1 - Folds
Hero - returned ($10) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero - Does not show
Hero Collects $81.50 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($83.50) | Rake ($2)

 

[slycbnew]

You don't think he'd do this w a 9 and 2 small-ish cards?

Is he smart enough to fold an oesd? If he's not smart enough to fold an oesd, he's not smart enough to fold TT-KK imo. I'm reluctant to make this kind of play at 10plo cuz I see alot of people calling w oesd's here, unless I think villain's got sum skillz.

For sizing, I agree, no need to make it larger.

 

[Marginal]

You don't think he'd do this w a 9 and 2 small-ish cards?

Is he smart enough to fold an oesd? If he's not smart enough to fold an oesd, he's not smart enough to fold TT-KK imo. I'm reluctant to make this kind of play at 10plo cuz I see alot of people calling w oesd's here, unless I think villain's got sum skillz.

For sizing, I agree, no need to make it larger.

Ya see, he wouldnt bet oesd or a 9 here, he would wait for me to hang myself, same with 10/10 to KK. It just has to be a complete bluff, but I dont know, maybe im overthinking something

 

[skoldpadda]

He is definitely not pot committed. 10/10 to KK can never call this.

You're playing 10max. Am I underestimating the ability of the average 10max player? I doubt it. He's committed with that bet imo.