BEST WAY TO PLAY JJ OR QQ AGAINST A FLOP WITH AN ACE OR KING??

L

luckytokenz

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Total posts
154
Chips
0
Hey fellow card chatters,

I have trouble sometimes on the best way to play queens or jacks with an ace or king on the board. I will usually always raise with the hand PF but when the ace or king hits sometimes I will bet out and see where I'm at, if I get called I assume I'm beat. Any suggestions?
 
StormRaven

StormRaven

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Total posts
2,510
Chips
0
Hey fellow card chatters,

I have trouble sometimes on the best way to play queens or jacks with an ace or king on the board. I will usually always raise with the hand PF but when the ace or king hits sometimes I will bet out and see where I'm at, if I get called I assume I'm beat. Any suggestions?

That's pretty much what I do. Of course it also depends on my opp and what reads I have on him and if the board is wet or dry.
 
spiderman637

spiderman637

RIP Buck
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Total posts
1,835
Chips
0
I suggest to raise at least 3x preflop with JJ or QQ in hand. Its better than limping preflop and den struggling with A or K in flop...
But as you have asked about playing post flop, i would say u strictly check it or call only small bets...And if u hit a trips at turn or river, u know u have to raise big{i wont suggest going allin though} !!!
 
T

ted80

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Total posts
467
Chips
0
you've raised preflop...great. a-k or both have hit...dammit...they're difficult hands to lay down preflop regardless of position, and its annoying to just get called but it usually pays off. take notes on the "any ace" type players and the "calls std raises with his blinds" type players. i think with JJ or QQ, its still worth a c-bet when OOP...and it might just let you know where you stand, or take the pot down right then and there. if you're in position, you'll quickly know whether you should fold. and depending on how the guys who called you are playing, you might be able to pick up on when you should check to the next card, call a bet, or raise. these are the types of hands that can make make post-flop play very tricky if an overcard hits and all you can really hope for is to all ready have a read on who's in with you. nothing wrong with folding when AA9 hits the flop after you raised with JJ and they shove on you...then show they have K9o and go "LOL!"...you raised for value, the idiot showed you had them beat...you have a better read now, they still had an overcard, and you saved the rest of your chips to give them a spanking later on. but hey, when i'm short, its a sng or mtt, and the blinds are deadly...JJ, QQ...or hell, any pp, that's an all-in gold mine, that's way better than the good ol shove of any 2 cards while you still have fold equity. they should be relatively easy hands to let go when you have the stack to fold though
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,599
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
That's pretty much what I do. Of course it also depends on my opp and what reads I have on him and if the board is wet or dry.

I think this is kinda old school to be honest.. but of course 'it depends'.

I've read in a thread before where you've written "wanted to bet out to see where I was at". I'd suggest reading Daniel Negreanu's latest book to gain a different perspective on this (or advanced MTT book.. "winning poker tournaments - one hand at a time").

Take this example... okay so you've lead out with a c-bet 'to see where you're at'.. and villain calls you... now what? Did you 'see where you were at'? Leading out also gives villain an oppurtunity to bluff you off the winning hand. It won't cost you more chips to 'check/call' in this spot (of course this depends... ie. in some cases you're going to want to 'represent' the A or K on the flop).
By leading out on the flop, you're basically turning what my be the winning hand into a bluff... if you check the flop you might induce bets from villain from hands you're ahead of (essentially instead of turning your hand into a bluff... it's now become a 'bluff catcher').

I should probably post some HH's to better illustrate what I'm getting at here... in different scenarios where often it is better to check the flop instead of 'betting to see where we're at' (often it really doesn't give us much info. at all... especially against a more skilled, trickier opponent).

OP.... maybe post a handhistory of your own, with reads on villain, table image, etc.
 
R

rakbarak

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Total posts
29
Chips
0
I make a probe bet and if a player raise i fold.
 
R

Ranger390

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 4, 2007
Total posts
217
Chips
0
As was said, it depends. The more players in the hand, the more likely I would check, rather than c-bet. Another thing to consider, how coordinated is the board? If there is a flush draw, your callers could be on the draw and not have an A or K. On these coordinated boards I would probably check the flop. On a rainbow board I would probably put out a smallish probe bet, since any straight draw would be a gutshot. As always, your position is important. If I had position I would probably bet if everyone checked. If you're out of position, you might check. What if you are in position, but another player bets into you, despite you being the preflop raiser? Good Luck!
 
JustRaiseTheBlinds

JustRaiseTheBlinds

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Total posts
228
Chips
0
If there isn't a raise before you, your can't do many more than bet 3xBB.

But when someone before you already did a raise, you can 3-bet with this hand. You want as much as possible in the pot pre-flop...
 
cardplayer52

cardplayer52

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Total posts
1,232
Chips
0
i find the best line is to check/call in these spots. if you lead out most of the hands you got beat fold. and for the most part only hands that got you beat call you. now if you check the villian will bet out with most of those hands that would of folded to a bet. yes some hands that beat you also bet but after you bet/call the flop you still maybe able to take the pot away from someone with top pair weak kicker. if they end up checking the turn after they bet the flop pending on the villian i may try thin vbet on the river.
 
Worak

Worak

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Total posts
6,024
Chips
0
I think this is kinda old school to be honest.. but of course 'it depends'.

I've read in a thread before where you've written "wanted to bet out to see where I was at". I'd suggest reading Daniel Negreanu's latest book to gain a different perspective on this (or advanced MTT book.. "winning poker tournaments - one hand at a time").

Take this example... okay so you've lead out with a c-bet 'to see where you're at'.. and villain calls you... now what? Did you 'see where you were at'? Leading out also gives villain an oppurtunity to bluff you off the winning hand. It won't cost you more chips to 'check/call' in this spot (of course this depends... ie. in some cases you're going to want to 'represent' the A or K on the flop).
By leading out on the flop, you're basically turning what my be the winning hand into a bluff... if you check the flop you might induce bets from villain from hands you're ahead of (essentially instead of turning your hand into a bluff... it's now become a 'bluff catcher').

I should probably post some HH's to better illustrate what I'm getting at here... in different scenarios where often it is better to check the flop instead of 'betting to see where we're at' (often it really doesn't give us much info. at all... especially against a more skilled, trickier opponent).

OP.... maybe post a handhistory of your own, with reads on villain, table image, etc.

OOp to villain check/call will save you chips/money if villain has hit.

In position (given you have thinned the field with a pf raise) I'd play it as if I had the A most of the time (without reads)

- if villain likes check-raising I'd take the free card hoping to hit my set on turn.
 
trucker103

trucker103

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Total posts
1,029
Chips
0
very tough hands post flop with ace or king on board i know i have huge troubles with these hands but i bet out and lose most of the time
 
L

luckytokenz

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Total posts
154
Chips
0
I usually will try to represent the ace, i will bet about 3/4 of the pot to put pressure and if raised , i toss, if I have chips then I might call a smallish raise with QQ, and as said before somewhere if the texture of the board is draw heavy then I might fire a second bullet if a blank hits, but good advice so far, thanks!
 
T

TheWall

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 30, 2009
Total posts
433
Chips
0
I think this is kinda old school to be honest.. but of course 'it depends'.

I've read in a thread before where you've written "wanted to bet out to see where I was at". I'd suggest reading Daniel Negreanu's latest book to gain a different perspective on this (or advanced MTT book.. "winning poker tournaments - one hand at a time").

Take this example... okay so you've lead out with a c-bet 'to see where you're at'.. and villain calls you... now what? Did you 'see where you were at'? Leading out also gives villain an oppurtunity to bluff you off the winning hand. It won't cost you more chips to 'check/call' in this spot (of course this depends... ie. in some cases you're going to want to 'represent' the A or K on the flop).

By leading out on the flop, you're basically turning what my be the winning hand into a bluff... if you check the flop you might induce bets from villain from hands you're ahead of (essentially instead of turning your hand into a bluff... it's now become a 'bluff catcher').


OP.... maybe post a handhistory of your own, with reads on villain, table image, etc.

I've never thought about it like this before. I've always opted for the "old school" technique and I can definitely see the possible upside to this approach. I would be very interested to see some hand histories from both sides.
 
BLieve

BLieve

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Total posts
224
Chips
0
if you check the flop you might induce bets from villain from hands you're ahead of (essentially instead of turning your hand into a bluff... it's now become a 'bluff catcher').

I should probably post some HH's to better illustrate what I'm getting at here... in different scenarios where often it is better to check the flop instead of 'betting to see where we're at' (often it really doesn't give us much info. at all... especially against a more skilled, trickier opponent).

OP.... maybe post a handhistory of your own, with reads on villain, table image, etc.
In order to be a bluff catcher a raise from oop on the turn or the river would be involved right? That would take cojones.
 
spunka

spunka

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Total posts
884
Awards
2
Chips
67
I think this is kinda old school to be honest.. but of course 'it depends'.

I've read in a thread before where you've written "wanted to bet out to see where I was at". I'd suggest reading Daniel Negreanu's latest book to gain a different perspective on this (or advanced MTT book.. "winning poker tournaments - one hand at a time").

Take this example... okay so you've lead out with a c-bet 'to see where you're at'.. and villain calls you... now what? Did you 'see where you were at'? Leading out also gives villain an oppurtunity to bluff you off the winning hand. It won't cost you more chips to 'check/call' in this spot (of course this depends... ie. in some cases you're going to want to 'represent' the A or K on the flop).
By leading out on the flop, you're basically turning what my be the winning hand into a bluff... if you check the flop you might induce bets from villain from hands you're ahead of (essentially instead of turning your hand into a bluff... it's now become a 'bluff catcher').

I should probably post some HH's to better illustrate what I'm getting at here... in different scenarios where often it is better to check the flop instead of 'betting to see where we're at' (often it really doesn't give us much info. at all... especially against a more skilled, trickier opponent).

OP.... maybe post a handhistory of your own, with reads on villain, table image, etc.

This sound like a good way to go if you're oop, if you check and opponent raise then you can check reraise ... after all you did raise pre-flop so you might have A K or big pockets, now he will be in a though spot.. and he really need a good hand to continue.
 
Last edited:
B

bmfbpi

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Total posts
25
Chips
0
bet 3BB before the flop, bet on the flop, if i get reraised i fold,
 
T

turby

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Total posts
182
Chips
0
Right. Best to run through your options and also 5 diff scenarios that can play out here comes to mind.

1)You raise early out of pos - MULTIWAY
2) You raise early out of pos - Headsup
3) You are out of pos and are caught between two players.
4) You are in pos and its Multiway
5) you are in pos and it's Headup

Questions to ask yourself: What's your image? (bluffing too much and showing will result in less respect) What's your opponent's image? (what's his raising range) Is your opponent a thinking player? What's the texture on the board besides the A/K on the board? (is there a flush/str draw?) How much chips do you have left? If you make a move, are you pot-committed? How far into the tournament are you? (are you better off taking a stand or giving this up for better chances down the line) What are the blinds/antes? (This determines how much to bet)

What are your options?

Fold (assumming he bets) - Out of position(OOP) and multiway.. your best option unless you wanna bluff on the A/K. Safest choice and easiest to take.

Bet - it's checked to you and you bet or you're out of position and you bet first. A good decision if heads up and a cheaper way to gain information than check raising.

Check-raise shows the most strength. I mean, comeon, the range of hands you could have raise with includes (AK,AQ,) and you could have the K and you may induce the guy to fold a weaker kicker but this usually rarely happens. If you face a reraise or worse, a reraise all in, this would have cost you much more than a raise would have.

Another option I've seen is people making small blocker bets all the way. Keeps the pot small but usually that's a giveaway of what you're holding IMHO.

Now assuming this hands goes into 4th street and the river.. You may want to reaccess the situation. And this is where your reads come in? do you fire a 2nd barrel or a 3rd barrel? How big a bet do you bet to try and bluff him off it?
If you hit your two-outer on the way.. Good for you. Reel him in. Go to valuetown with him but watch out for any made draws.

Lots to think about. Comes with experience but whatever it is, never have a pre-set plan in stone. Always adapt to the situation. If it's multiway, more likely someone could be holding an A or a K but they could also be holding pocket pairs. This is wear your reads come in. More likely than not, you're beat and your opponent won't be able to fold unless he really respects you.

Another thing to consider is when you bet, what are the odds of a worse hand paying you off with JJ/TT/QQ when there's overcards on the board. Highly unlikely. Overall, best to play these hands cautiously or go for the jugular to play it like you have it. (then again, who says you need JJ/TT/QQ to do that) ;p

My 2 cents.
 
P

PokerJoeAAAA

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Total posts
165
Chips
0
Flod JJ preflop and move on. JJ is as bad as AQ.
 
doops

doops

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2009
Total posts
669
Chips
0
I think this is kinda old school to be honest.. but of course 'it depends'.

I've read in a thread before where you've written "wanted to bet out to see where I was at". I'd suggest reading Daniel Negreanu's latest book to gain a different perspective on this (or advanced MTT book.. "winning poker tournaments - one hand at a time").

Take this example... okay so you've lead out with a c-bet 'to see where you're at'.. and villain calls you... now what? Did you 'see where you were at'? Leading out also gives villain an oppurtunity to bluff you off the winning hand. It won't cost you more chips to 'check/call' in this spot (of course this depends... ie. in some cases you're going to want to 'represent' the A or K on the flop).
By leading out on the flop, you're basically turning what my be the winning hand into a bluff... if you check the flop you might induce bets from villain from hands you're ahead of (essentially instead of turning your hand into a bluff... it's now become a 'bluff catcher').

I should probably post some HH's to better illustrate what I'm getting at here... in different scenarios where often it is better to check the flop instead of 'betting to see where we're at' (often it really doesn't give us much info. at all... especially against a more skilled, trickier opponent).

OP.... maybe post a handhistory of your own, with reads on villain, table image, etc.

Well, PO, you have made good points. But I still like the c-bet on the flop to see where you're at. Say the other guy calls. Now you can assume he has something, maybe an A-rag or a draw. Yes, it tells you there could be a problem. A better way to see where you're at is check and then check-raise his almost inevitable bet. Then you will have a real good idea where you stand. It will cost you, but probably not as much as it might have.
 
J

joemac696969

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Total posts
219
Chips
0
I would make a raise pre flop and see how many callers there are and hope to take it down before the flop ever comes, if there is an A or K on the flop throw out a bet and see if you get reraised and if that is the case I would muck JJ QQ!
 
Worak

Worak

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Total posts
6,024
Chips
0
Flod JJ preflop and move on. JJ is as bad as AQ.

Assuming you mean fold ;) - I won't fold JJ , AQos - they're not easy to play but you can't rely on getting AA,KK,QQ,AKos all the time, can you ?

btw JJ >> AKo/s
 
Tonky666

Tonky666

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Total posts
322
Chips
0
i raise big,sometime pot or a bit more, or push if im short..
if flop big i push...they usually fold
 
L

luckytokenz

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Total posts
154
Chips
0
So far it seems to me that the check- check-raise will let you know where you are at the most, although expensive. If you bet straight out, and they call, I think the texture of the board should give you a lil info, and if there are draws out there especially flush draw bcuz they are much more recognizable than straights, and you fire a second bullet, i think most people in lower stakes would just call with a draw, although you might get raised by more sophisticated players, more so in higher stakes. IMO I think bottom line is play the hand conservitively, and betting(or check-raising) is the only way to find out information. and if your in oop and they bet, that should say something.
 
T

testreet

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Total posts
88
Chips
0
You take a stab at the pot and if they reraise you then you are pretty much beat...If they call you down then perhaps they are chasing something
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,599
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
You take a stab at the pot and if they reraise you then you are pretty much beat...If they call you down then perhaps they are chasing something

Cool.... I'll just re-raise you with air then when you're 'stabbing at the pot'. (you've turned a good hand into a bluff).

By check/calling on the flop it is costing you nothing more than the 'stab at the pot', AND you're going to get as much info. (or more once the turn comes) then you would by stabbing at the pot vs. a good player (you could be raised off the best hand, you could be floated and then what kind of info. is that giving you?.. none... maybe you're beat.. maybe you're not... now what are you going to do on the turn???.. >> donate more or c/f and give it up to the bluff... or QQ JJ, etc.).
 
Top