best strategies for 10NL

Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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What has worked for you at this level. What hasnt

Give us whatever tips you have to offer.
 
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6bet me

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One thing which I think works well at the 5NL / 10NL level is light 3-betting. I usually only do this when 2 conditions are met:
1) I am in late position and the villain is in early position
2) I have a suited connector better than 45s, a suited one-gapper better than 97s, a suited King better than K6s, or any suited Ace.

Eg. MP opens to $0.25, hero (BTN) has 7h 6h, hero re-raises to $0.90
Eg2. UTG opens to $0.30, hero (BTN) has Jc 9c, hero re-raises to $1.00
Eg3. MP opens to $0.30, hero (CO) has Ks 9s, hero re-raises to $1.00
Eg4. CO opens to $0.30, hero (BTN) has Ad 4d, hero re-raises to $1.00

The benefits of light 3-betting include:
1) Lots of fold equity. Suppose the villain has AJo or a low pocket pair. Is he really going to want to call and play a large pot out of position?
2) You are more difficult to range. If the villain flat-calls, then you can represent a much stronger range than him (you can represent AKs or KK+ but he can't, since he only flat-called you).
3) You are in position with a hand which contains a lot of implied odds.
4) It prevents other players from squeezing you. If you flat-call the raise, then there is a lot of temptation for the SB or BB to squeeze you both out with a large raise (perhaps 4x the size that you called).

I think that light 3-betting is one of the main differences between 2NL players and 10NL+ players. Strong players take advantage of this, weak players flat-call too often.
 
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Aces2w1n

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Thanks great, i'm on the right track :)

because today I've already started doing this, and I'm trying to minimize flat calling as well.

Thanks for the reply, anyone else got more advice please.
 
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wildice13

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what about 3betting light OOP for example from the blinds vs a btn or cutoff steal?

assuming that LP are opening 60% would you say that a similar range of 'bluff hands' is suitable.?

also on the flip side, i am struggling with deciding whether to flat or 3bet a hand like AJ or KQ in the sb vs LP open. i see an argument of 3betting for value against a wide range, but surely by 3betting i'm also folding out the hands I dominate.
 
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Dorugremon

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I would add thin value bets. Go for that thin value instead of checking back rivers. Also, keep an eye out for players who may be adjusting to your thin 3!s. They could start looking you up light and/or 4! light.
 
Mase31683

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I wasn't gonna say anything, but I changed my mind. I think light 3betting is a terrible idea at these stakes. The average player profile is much MUCH more inclined to make bad calls, which means your 3b range should be skewed to strength. If you want to 3b more you can, but you shouldn't be doing it with 76s or A4s. Villains are more prone to make calls with hands like Ax or KT/QT/JT so open up your 3b value range against those players by including hands like KJs, ATs, if you want use some gappers like 75s, but if you want to purely 3b for value I don't see you missing much. A hand like 76s, why not just take the flop in position and play a pot?

In my database, the average $10NL Fv3b is 30.8%. 69% of the time they're going to call your 3bet, so only you can decide how you want to proceed there, but I don't think going light is the way.
 
ConDeck

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I wasn't gonna say anything, but I changed my mind. I think light 3betting is a terrible idea at these stakes. The average player profile is much MUCH more inclined to make bad calls, which means your 3b range should be skewed to strength. If you want to 3b more you can, but you shouldn't be doing it with 76s or A4s. Villains are more prone to make calls with hands like Ax or KT/QT/JT so open up your 3b value range against those players by including hands like KJs, ATs, if you want use some gappers like 75s, but if you want to purely 3b for value I don't see you missing much. A hand like 76s, why not just take the flop in position and play a pot?

In my database, the average $10NL Fv3b is 30.8%. 69% of the time they're going to call your 3bet, so only you can decide how you want to proceed there, but I don't think going light is the way.

In reference to another post of yours you are playing full ring though right? In which case your opp are going to have a tighter range generally?
 
Mase31683

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I do play more FR, that's true. I dunno, I just don't see that much difference to 6max really though.

I feel like villain specific you could 3b light for reasons, but that in general you'd be better served with something around 5% value range.

Are villain's prone to calling 3b OOP then afraid to stack off? I can see that being a great spot.

Teach me why it's better to 3b light at these stakes.
 
Dorugremon

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I wasn't gonna say anything, but I changed my mind. I think light 3betting is a terrible idea at these stakes.

Does it really need to be said? No one is suggesting mindlessly 3-betting because, LOLZ, I feel like it. Sure, if the nittiest player in the game, who hasn't made a move in the past hour, pops for 4.5BB UTG, you are not gonna 3! with 76-suited!

However, when the whole table's weak/tight/passive, then you're losing value if you don't slam a light 3! in there when you have position. Two good things can happen: you pick up the blinds uncontested. Or you get called, go to the flop, and pick off the pot with a c-bet. If you flop good and win a showdown, they'll be more likely to pay you off when you pick up a big pair on or near the button.

There are times when I'll open-raise UTG with ATC in games where I see a lot of folding. If you get called and hit the flop hard, so much the better. Wait for the quality hands out of the first two holes and a lot of chips will come with them. Your more superstitious opponents will even convince themselves you have some sort of preternatural ability to sense when winners are coming your way.

The average player profile is much MUCH more inclined to make bad calls, which means your 3b range should be skewed to strength. If you want to 3b more you can, but you shouldn't be doing it with 76s or A4s. Villains are more prone to make calls with hands like Ax or KT/QT/JT so open up your 3b value range against those players by including hands like KJs, ATs, if you want use some gappers like 75s, but if you want to purely 3b for value I don't see you missing much. A hand like 76s, why not just take the flop in position and play a pot?
You can do that too.

In my database, the average $10NL Fv3b is 30.8%. 69% of the time they're going to call your 3bet, so only you can decide how you want to proceed there, but I don't think going light is the way.
All that tells you is what happened in the past. What's important is what the table dynamic is right now. If most of the spots are filled with weak/passives, then that's how you adjust. If they are aggro-tards, then wait for good hands and take 'em to Value Town.

You have to keep 'em guessing.
 
Mase31683

Mase31683

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However, when the whole table's weak/tight/passive, then you're losing value if you don't slam a light 3! in there when you have position. Two good things can happen: you pick up the blinds uncontested. Or you get called, go to the flop, and pick off the pot with a c-bet. If you flop good and win a showdown, they'll be more likely to pay you off when you pick up a big pair on or near the button.

There are times when I'll open-raise UTG with ATC in games where I see a lot of folding. If you get called and hit the flop hard, so much the better. Wait for the quality hands out of the first two holes and a lot of chips will come with them. Your more superstitious opponents will even convince themselves you have some sort of preternatural ability to sense when winners are coming your way.

If a player is tight, that's who you're going to 3bet more? Not the guy who's loose and has a wider range? Those players are tight because they're playing strong cards, so why would that be the player profile to light 3bet against? I would need a very specific read like this guy Fv3b >= 70%, or this player will flat 3bets oop, and then let it go to a flop cbet unless he connects. If I had met some criteria like that, then I could support making that 3b bluff, but without it I'd stick to a value 3b range.

I wouldn't consider this a case of picking up blinds uncontested. The fact that you're 3betting means the pot is contested. In this case one of those tight players said they have a hand and we're going to 3! with suited connectors or gappers because....

It's not like I think it's a terrible thing to 3bet light, when I was playing $100nl I had a 3b range ~10%, but you're gonna end up in some really marginal spots holding crappy cards. My take on it is why do that to ourselves in this game when we can just own those same villains way easier. They're weak/tight, so raise more when it's folded to you. Now, yeah you expect to take it down quite a bit preflop, or if called you can fire at the flop and those guys are playing fit or fold. When a nit throws his money in to raise I beat him by folding and not playing with him when he's strong, not by trying to bowl him over and hope he lays down a hand he's finally saying he likes.
 
Al Spath

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Get a friend to mentor you a bit, shadow you, point out where they differ from your approach and why. Lots of free articles and videos on the subject, hope you check them out as well. good luck and keep us posted.
 
Mase31683

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That's probably the best advice yet. I know the vast majority of my growth as a player early on was due to having a close friend that was also full time. We'd play all night, get food, and then talk about spots that came up, bounce ideas off each other. That really helped a lot.
 
vinylspiros

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mase. Your advice is spot on. Anyone who disagress with you is probably not beating the micros over a large sample.

The type of moves mentioned ,like 3 betting light are moves we have all experimented with and do work well some of the times.

The problem is that they create high variance situations ,that if you get into too often, will lead to losing money.

The only "PROVEN" way to beat the micros over a large sample size is TAG. that means tight aggressive.

You have to fold 57 suited unless your overcalling and your getting a good price in position or if your gonna play it,there must be a good reason like to steal from the button etc.


3Betting with Junk is really cool to watch on tv but in reality it isnt a winning style in the micros.

And for those of you who say it works, post a graph and stats that prove 3betting with suited one gappers VS tight UTG opens is profitable.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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I think the biggest difference between 10nl and 4nl, is that players bet mega hard when they think they have the best hand. Its your job to work out if they actually have the best hand, or just think they do. This is where a bit of level three thinking comes into play.

ie. what do they think I have?

For example.

Generally I could always get paid off with stacks with a set vs villains TPTK on the flop at 4nl.

At 10nl some villains can understand that a big check raise on the flop means they have to fold TPTK. I am finding that saving big raises for the turn with sets allows me to get paid off. As firstly villain has committed more money, and they cant put the story together.

Just to clarify, I am not saying to beat 10nl you must always slowplay (I still advise playing most made hands pretty quickly). However its worth thinking a bit deeper about ranges and how to play them vs villains likely hands. Plus you cannot play your cards face up and expect to get paid off like you often can at 4nl.
 
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I actually lost an entire bankroll at 10NL with 10BI (lots of tilting, bad hero calls, etc), but redeposited 20BI for 25NL and have run it up to 55BI. I've been crushing 25NL for about 7bb/100+. But since 10NL is probably way worse than 25NL, I can probably give applicable advice. This is readless on Bovada just fyi. But I think in general, it's pretty solid advice.

Value bet more and bluff less are probably the two most useful advice, especially at the micros. Unless you pick up strong equity on the turn, it's usually best to just give up after a flop c-bet. And if the board texture is pretty bad, giving up is okay, especially if you have little equity when called. And don't try to cbet into 2+ people unless you have strong/decent equity (OESD, flush draw, pair+GS/FD, etc), especially A high boards. Fish tend to get very stubborn at the micros with pairs, and they overplay junky Ax hands, especially if they are sooted lol. Barreling at A or K turn cards actually isn't that great either, as fish can tend to get stubborn and float IP and OOP with naked overcards, or get stubborn with 2nd/3rd pair/FD's/SD's/pair+SD. You could have probably taken them off their hand if you fired the third barrel, but it's very expensive and hard to tell if they're just being stubborn with their hand or if they actually have a strong hand.

Light 3-betting is lighting money on fire, as fish will call or cold call with junk pretty often. You can expect to get called by 22, J9s, AJs, 88, 55, 44, KJo, 36s (yes, i know...) OOP! Just today at 25NL zone I squeezed huge in the BB with AA vs an UTG raiser and SB caller (the SB and I were very deep), and the SB called with Q9s OOP. Thought he was actually competent because he was 280BB deep or so.

I would 3-bet very tight OOP (JJ/AQo+), even against button opens, since you have very little fold equity. I personally 3-bet a wider range in position, but you have to be very comfortable playing postflop to do so. But you can't go wrong with JJ/AQo+ as a default, unless you're playing a nit.

What makes 3-betting profitable is picking up dead money from fold equity, or making them call with worse hands that are dominated (AK/AQ vs KQ, AA/KK/QQ/JJ vs 109s or whatever junk they're calling with). You have almost NO fold equity, and OOP, you can very easily get bluffed off your hand, even if A-high is best. So we make most of our money at the micros from 3-betting for VALUE.

Just yesterday, I 3-bet J10s from the BB against a btn steal, and he called. Flop 10xx. Checked it to him, and he barreled his whole stack off to me. Luckily, the river was a 10, so I ended up calling. If it didn't, I probably would've folded. You get into really sticky spots OOP, and it's very easy to make mistakes without solid postflop play.

I've recently started 3-betting more from the blinds (depolarized and some bluffs like JQs), but I highly advise against this until your postflop play gets much better. I lost a lot of money 3-betting from the blinds and in general until my postflop play was solid.

A skill I've found very useful is checking to underrep your hand, inducing bluffs and lighter call downs. This actually improved my winrate pretty well, but this also requires good hand reading skills and being able to put your opponent on a range. Like AK in a 4-bet pot. Flop Axx. Check and go for a turn barrel and very small river bet to get a stubborn QQ or JJ to pay you off. Or if you flop TPBK in position or OOP (a very very common scenario). Let's say you open OTB with A3s, and flop comes A82. This is a really good spot to pot control, and induce bluffs and lighter calldowns. People will barrel into you if you show weakness, and tend to call down lighter if you underrep your hand. If you bet the flop just because "I have TP!", you're losing a lot of value by doing so.

You will get paid off by bluffs, or they just won't want to believe that you have an A because you checked the flop. Or be confused and pay off a turn and river bet with 99. Realistically, besides KK or QQ, that's the only hand you can have. If you didn't have KK, QQ, or TPBK, why would you check an Axx board as the PFR? And your hand really can't take a lot of pressure either, especially OOP. By checking, we keep their whole range in: bluffs, value hands, and second best hands.
 
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vinylspiros

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I actually lost an entire bankroll at 10NL with 10BI (lots of tilting, bad hero calls, etc), but redeposited 20BI for 25NL and have run it up to 55BI. I've been crushing 25NL for about 7bb/100+. But since 10NL is probably way worse than 25NL, I can probably give applicable advice. This is readless on Bovada just fyi. But I think in general, it's pretty solid advice.

Value bet more and bluff less are probably the two most useful advice, especially at the micros. Unless you pick up strong equity on the turn, it's usually best to just give up after a flop c-bet. And if the board texture is pretty bad, giving up is okay, especially if you have little equity when called. And don't try to cbet into 2+ people unless you have strong/decent equity (OESD, flush draw, pair+GS/FD, etc), especially A high boards. Fish tend to get very stubborn at the micros with pairs, and they overplay junky Ax hands, especially if they are sooted lol. Barreling at A or K turn cards actually isn't that great either, as fish can tend to get stubborn and float IP and OOP with naked overcards, or get stubborn with 2nd/3rd pair/FD's/SD's/pair+SD. You could have probably taken them off their hand if you fired the third barrel, but it's very expensive and hard to tell if they're just being stubborn with their hand or if they actually have a strong hand.

Light 3-betting is lighting money on fire, as fish will call or cold call with junk pretty often. You can expect to get called by 22, J9s, AJs, 88, 55, 44, KJo, 36s (yes, i know...) OOP! Just today at 25NL zone I squeezed huge in the BB with AA vs an UTG raiser and SB caller (the SB and I were very deep), and the SB called with Q9s OOP. Thought he was actually competent because he was 280BB deep or so.

I would 3-bet very tight OOP (JJ/AQo+), even against button opens, since you have very little fold equity. I personally 3-bet a wider range in position, but you have to be very comfortable playing postflop to do so. But you can't go wrong with JJ/AQo+ as a default, unless you're playing a nit.

What makes 3-betting profitable is picking up dead money from fold equity, or making them call with worse hands that are dominated (AK/AQ vs KQ, AA/KK/QQ/JJ vs 109s or whatever junk they're calling with). You have almost NO fold equity, and OOP, you can very easily get bluffed off your hand, even if A-high is best. So we make most of our money at the micros from 3-betting for VALUE.

Just yesterday, I 3-bet J10s from the BB against a btn steal, and he called. Flop 10xx. Checked it to him, and he barreled his whole stack off to me. Luckily, the river was a 10, so I ended up calling. If it didn't, I probably would've folded. You get into really sticky spots OOP, and it's very easy to make mistakes without solid postflop play.

I've recently started 3-betting more from the blinds (depolarized and some bluffs like JQs), but I highly advise against this until your postflop play gets much better. I lost a lot of money 3-betting from the blinds and in general until my postflop play was solid.

A skill I've found very useful is checking to underrep your hand, inducing bluffs and lighter call downs. This actually improved my winrate pretty well, but this also requires good hand reading skills and being able to put your opponent on a range. Like AK in a 4-bet pot. Flop Axx. Check and go for a turn barrel and very small river bet to get a stubborn QQ or JJ to pay you off. Or if you flop TPBK in position or OOP (a very very common scenario). Let's say you open OTB with A3s, and flop comes A82. This is a really good spot to pot control, and induce bluffs and lighter calldowns. People will barrel into you if you show weakness, and tend to call down lighter if you underrep your hand. If you bet the flop just because "I have TP!", you're losing a lot of value by doing so.

You will get paid off by bluffs, or they just won't want to believe that you have an A because you checked the flop. Or be confused and pay off a turn and river bet with 99. Realistically, besides KK or QQ, that's the only hand you can have. If you didn't have KK, QQ, or TPBK, why would you check an Axx board as the PFR? And your hand really can't take a lot of pressure either, especially OOP. By checking, we keep their whole range in: bluffs, value hands, and second best hands.


Very good post and i agree with most of the points you make here.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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MinhANguyen, thats one of the best posts I have read on here concerning the micros.

What did villain have when you had JTs?
 
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MinhANguyen, thats one of the best posts I have read on here concerning the micros.

What did villain have when you had JTs?

A8s for a stone cold bluff :). A lot of players float with overcards on a dry board or any pair (even bottom pair because they "put you on AK" lol), and it's hard to tell if they have an overpair or are just trying to float and bluff on the turn/river. And I think if you let them bluff the flop and turn, they'll almost always give up on the river. Whereas if you bet the flop, and scare cards come on the turn and river, you could easily get bluffed on the hand as your range seems so capped. It could also look like you're trying to trap, so it's very rare that they'll fire the 3rd bullet if you check all three streets. And I am not getting value from JJ/QQ/A10s or the junky K10/Q10s they might have gotten sticky with preflop, so I just decided to check to keep his bluff range in too.
 
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starting_at_the_bottom

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Yea, there are some blufftards that use force, and if that doesnt work they go for even more force.

What resources did you use to work on your post flop game?
 
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Yea, there are some blufftards that use force, and if that doesnt work they go for even more force.

What resources did you use to work on your post flop game?

A lot improvement came from observing hands at showdown and self-analyzing opponent's thought processes/tendencies. I actually did not know that there was a hand replayer on Bovada until a few weeks ago. And since I could see how the whole hand played out, I can see what mistakes they make, such as betting too much when checked to with marginal hands like 2nd pair/air/TPBK (which allows for check-raises & more money :), as well as bluff raises), bluffing too much when checked to and giving up on either the turn or river, etc. I think this is where most of my improvement came from as for postflop.

Before I knew about the hand replayer, I always gave villain too much credit for a hand, for example thinking they only call down the river with TPDK, 2nd pair minimum. They can call with a lot worse, like A-high, bottom pair, etc, so thin value betting becomes important. I think the river is a very important street, as this is when the pot is biggest. Making mistakes like not value betting enough or calling down too light can probably affect your winrate pretty significantly.

I also improved a lot from searching up similar hands I was unsure that I play well on this forum or twoplustwo. Reading feedback from other players helps a lot. Just recently, I began watching The Poker Bank videos online too. They tell me a lot of things I already know, but there are some interesting concepts I learn here and there that have probably helped my winrate a little bit.
 
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matiusaa

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What has worked for you at this level. What hasnt

Give us whatever tips you have to offer.

There is not a correct way to play. There are different types of players and you should adjust to exploit their game. I suggest you buy a holdem manager or pokertracker if you don't have one and it will help you a lot to identify how the different players play.
 
Aces2w1n

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There is not a correct way to play. There are different types of players and you should adjust to exploit their game. I suggest you buy a holdem manager or pokertracker if you don't have one and it will help you a lot to identify how the different players play.



Ty i use pt4
 
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