Beating Micro Stakes Zoom Poker On Stars

TheGenera1

TheGenera1

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Ok so I have looked online and seen very little in the way of useful tips for beating micro stakes zoom poker on stars. I have played since it first game out and I'm averaging around 6k hands a day on it. I play 4 tables of 5nl and 2 tables of 2nl. 6 tables is the max you can play now because PS lowered the amount, I guess this was due to people being extreme nits... not sure however.

Anyway use this topic to discuss all things zoom as I'm sure there are a lot of strategys that will crush zoom as it is a really new thing to stars and Rush sucked.

Useful things I do to ensure I make a profit almost every single session I play. (I don't use a hud for zoom yet, only for regular poker) There are exceptions to these rules if you have info on your opponent.

1. Fold KK preflop to a 5 bet/don't call all in preflop with KK because you are up against AA almost EVERY TIME.
I don't care what anybody says to me because after playing thousands and thousands of hands at zoom, I have noticed that people almost never shove without AA or KK so you are a flip at best.
Exception to this rule is if you have notes or the villain is short stacked or you are in the blinds. Blind on blind play tends to be looser.

2. Do not over play bottom set/22 33 sets.
Now this is a complicated point and it by no means suggests you should fold your bottom set at all, but what it does mean is you should be wary of someone with massive aggression on the flop because they more often than not have a higher set. Just imagine you are in a live casino playing a cash game, and there is a bloke across from you literally spilling his food and drink because he can't get the chips into the middle fast enough. Is someone really going to be 4/5 bet shoving you on the flop with anything less than a set? I think not... I no I wouldn't.

The way you should play your 22 33 sets is by calling an EP/middle open raise and hoping to stack them if an A or K falls on the flop (and you hit your set) because they hit their TPTK. This spot is fine for a stack off. However if you all LIMP in pre flop, then your tiny bottom set is very often up against a higher set. You should not limp 22/33 but CALL open raises with them. This ensures that you will almost always be in a favourable spot with your tiny set.

3. 3bet in late position like there is no tomorrow.

By 3betting a wide range of hands you will so often make people fold their AK or w/e oop and take down a small pot. All these pots add up and really help your winrate. The reason this works, is because with the vast amount of hands people are seeing per hour, they really have no desire to call out of position with mediocre hands. They will fold out lots of strong hands that they would not normally fold in a Ring Game.
If you do get flatted, then it is even more profitable when you take it away on the flop by cbetting. (ensure proper board texture) Give up on the turn if called unless you improve.

4. Raise blind steals with a wide range of hands.
A lot of recreational players think they are being smart arses raising every single button that they have to steal the blinds because they think no one will notice because of the zoom format. By raising their steals you will take down a large amount of pots where the villain has absolute garbage and cannot possibly call profitably. If they do call, then take the pot away on the flop as it is likely that have missed. Again, give up on the turn if called because they obviously have strong holdings to make the flop call. If they are floating, then well played them... however you don't run into these players often.

5. Isolate single limpers if you are in the button or cutoff as much as you can with a wide range.
This is a strategy that I'm sure you will all know from your standard ring game experience, but in zoom, you will find it is even more profitable as people are constantly limping to try and make sets, and when they miss they lay down the hand. Micro Zoom poker is all about making sets and punishing people stupid enough to get attached to their high pocket pairs. So this being said, it is inevitable that you will find people limping with a lot more frequency than in a standard ring game, but more importantly, they don't get attached to their hand due to boredom, like in standard micro stakes games, because the next hand is right around the corner. So by isolating these limper's while in position, you can take away a lot of pots on the flop when they fold their low pp's that haven't set mined successfully.

6. DO NOT BLUFF
Seriously, beyond the C bet on the flop, just don't do it. People are unlikely to fold on the turn, what they liked on the flop and double barreling gets very expensive when people keep calling you down. Sometimes you can get away with a double barrel if an A or K falls on the turn as players will be scared of this, but apart from that, don't bother. There is a lot of easy money to be made at zoom, and it doesn't come from bluffing.

7. Be very wary if raised post flop.
As with your standard ring games, you want to be very wary if raised post flop, especially if you have a hand that you like the look of but is simply a mere pair. This means that if you have AK on an A or K board and some one raises the flop it means more often than not, you are going to be facing a large turn bet as well. It is up to you to judge to size of the flop raise and whether or not they are likely to fire the turn as well, which in most cases signals a stronger hand than TPTK or an overpair which is what you will be holding.
The reason you should be more wary of raises at zoom, is because people bluff less and value more. They don't have to worry about a tight image as the table is new each time, so they are going to show up with a hand that beats TPTK or an over pair a lot more than they would if it was a standard ring game. (For the record, Russians and Germans tend to be really aggressive, so if you can't decide whether to call the flop raise, check to see if one of these nationalitys is there :p ) However don't get carried away as they get good hands too. A standard rule for whether to call a flop raise or not is to check if it is more than a min raise. You can call a min raise, but should probably fold to a larger raise. Fold to a large turn bet if you called a flop minraise as they will often have better than a pair when firing the turn as well. If they check, then you will often have the best hand.

8. Playing Small and Medium Pocket Pairs.
You should be looking to set mine as much as possible with these hands and be ready to throw them away on the flop unimproved. Certain paired boards warrant a call, but mostly get rid of them if you don't hit.

EP. Open 77+ for a 3x raise. If you miss your set you can C bet in a HU pot and try and take it down. (Ensure propper board texture)
Limp 44-66 and then call a medium sized raise from players to act behind you. Your limps will get raised often (which is good because when you do hit your set, you get paid off more)
There is no need to open 6's and below because people will always raise your limp.

MP. Open raise 44+ and call reasonable sized opens from in front of you with any PP. You can open all pocket pairs from here because it is less likely that you will be 3bet. You also open all pairs from here to help build a pot.


Finally just bare in mind that this is for 2nl 5nl and 10nl ONLY. I have no experience at the higher stakes so really cannot comment on that. These tips are only what I have learnt from playing lots of zoom hands, and although you may disagree, remember that this is just an opinion and I am by no means forcing anyone to play like this ;)
While this strategy is very weak tight, I would like to add that I have had only great results using this play. It DOES win, and with decent win rates as well. Yes you might be folding the best hand occasionally, but believe when I say how good it feels to walk away from almost ever session with considerably more money than when I started. Sometimes you will have a god awful run if cards and it will drive you insane, but these tips ensure that your session will be filled with extremely easy decisions throughout, and you won't find your self in marginal spots hitting the desk with you head for calling when you shouldn't or for having a cooler.

Thanks for reading.
 
10058765

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Thanks for reading.

Well, thanks for writing.....just wrote a post myself.....pretty useless I think.
Think you covered it pretty much, so...thanks for this again.....
 
TheGenera1

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No problem. I guess not many people play zoom as a lot are Americans here.
 
jbbb

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OMG I hate to say it buddy but you're going to get slated.

Just a few points:

If we're folding sets to aggression but playing sets to try and stack AK/AQ etc, how do we know them shipping the flop isnt just them playing AK aggressively. FWIW i'm NEVER folding a set on the flop, i'm getting it in and being very happy with it. TBH it sounds a bit like you're being results orientated.

Also I don't like 4bet folding. Yes, it's probably AA a good % of the time, if you have to fold to a 5bet its probably just better to flat the 3bet and play against a wider range on the flop. i.e. 4bet KK less.
Also if people ONLY 5bet AA you should be 4betting wide because you know people will rarely 5bet if it's only one hand they do it with (according to your theory).

I appreciated you've played a fair few hands but once you reach ~50k hand maybe you can start posting some of your data (assuming you track hands) and we can see how profitable KK is against 5bets and how often getting bottom set in on the flop is bad.

Nice article anyway, should start some discussion.
 
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orangepeeleo

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Nice post, ive just started playing zoom so needed a little guidance rather than wait to find it all out myself.

I dont know if I will carry on playing it though tbh, kinda annoying having to fold overpairs and 1 pair hands every time I get raised, like I get KK, open 4x, flops Q48, i cbet, villain calls, turns a blank, i bet again, villains shoves over the top, I dunno if im running a little bad but it just seems like we're almost never ahead there.
 
JOEBOB69

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Zoom is more rigged than rush?Since i'm U.S i can not prove this but sounds like it.
 
Karkus77

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i tried playing some decent volume, i even did a blog, but because it is such ABC poker it gets boring really quick, i will stick to my MTT's and the joys of metagame think

having said that, zoom is superb if you just have 20 minutes spare
 
shinedown.45

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I don't mind the zoom tables, I have played 4 and have yet to go negative ROI.
I'm not tracking my games but I have played so little that I know I still have a positive ROI.
Session 1: $2 buy-in, left table with $17
Session 2: $2 buy-in, left table with $12
Session 3: $2 buy-in, brought up to $5, left table with $0
Session 4: $2 buy-in, brought it up to $9, left table with $7

Not bad IMO, but I do know that I won't be able to stay running this good
 
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dazzammm

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Zoom is more rigged than rush?Since i'm U.S i can not prove this but sounds like it.

i firmly believe that was rigged too. the number of time AA, KK lost to a flopped set was unbeliveable.

gave up on FTP after having a hand with 3 to the flop and 2 people flopping sets and the third flopping a straight. and then the river paired the board giving 2 full houses.

saying that i saw a hand on zoom the other day with AA vs KK vs QQ and the board had an ace, king and a queen on it.
 
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dazzammm

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any thoughts on ratholing? (considering its allowed at present). (or should i learn to fold my aces after being shoved on post flop, removing the need of being worried about my stack. pre flop kings vs a shove and post flop aces vs a shove are my biggest leak - i just cant fold them).

also multitabling, considering the action is quick and the amount of time is reduced.? (I read somewhere of someone 6 tabling zoom! - im sticking to 2 at the mo after accidently folding queens and missing i had trips when 3 tabling)
 
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JOEBOB69

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i firmly believe that was rigged too. the number of time AA, KK lost to a flopped set was unbeliveable.

gave up on FTP after having a hand with 3 to the flop and 2 people flopping sets and the third flopping a straight. and then the river paired the board giving 2 full houses.

saying that i saw a hand on zoom the other day with AA vs KK vs QQ and the board had an ace, king and a queen on it.

Confirmed, rigged
 
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dazzammm

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has anyone noticed how the play differs at different times?
(i seem to lose loads at the weekend and then make it up during the week. i think the play is a bit looser at the weekend and i pay them off when they hit their gutshot:). really got to learn to fold to shoves - it usually only means one thing )
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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AK = mediocre?

really?

I mean, really?
 
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GWU73

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If this plays like Rush did, I would open 22+ for 3bb from any position, and respect early raisers (don't 3bet them to often), Use a HUD (every one else is) and 4 bet only BIG hands or vs frequent 3bet stealers. Otherwise I like your startegy. As a US player, I am currently confined to live play but I was beating $50nl rush - 3 tabling for 3.5 ptbb/100 (~70k hands at that level) when FT was around.
 
TheGenera1

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Lol claims of online poker being rigged... it's just not true.

I used to open 22+ from any position but I find it just isn't actually profitable. Acording to poker tracker low pocket pairs do more harm than good.
 
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RamdeeBen

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As much as it's great people making posts like this, I had to give up reading after your first two points because these are absolutely horrible advice, sorry.

Never, ever fold kings even in zoom. You say "everytime you're flip at best" I mean, I'm unsure as wtf you're doing but there is not true at all. I've played 10000's of zoom poker and you're so far from the truth it's unreal, espically for micros. If you're seriously folding kings to 5bets or shoves or whatever pre flop then you're losing money, simple as that. Next thing you will be saying fold aces to 6bets.

I've seen people shove SO wide any two, any pair much much worse than in a 6max normal table on stars so folding is AWFUL advice. Don't do this!

Folding sets even at zoom is even more of a stupid thing to do, even bottom set. Like I say, I'm unsure as to what is going on with you but people shove top pair on flops, any draws and so on....

I can't read no more..really I can't.

I'm unsure as if this post is meant to be a joke..or something :eek: I really can't work out what you're saying like seriously.


At the end of the day general, as good as post in terms of contents but the actually input is not good advice and if you're folding Kings pre at micros along with bottom sets then the fact of the matter is that you're losing money long term, FACT.
 
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dazzammm

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bit harsh ramdeebam. but i have been surprised what ive seen turned over after ive called a shove with kings. more often that not its NOT aces but someone not knowing what to do after being 3bet. its usually AK or a big - middle pair so youre between 65-80% fav.
if it was 5bet (as mentioned in the advice) it would depend on stack sizes.

now, a shove post flop, I find, is always a big hand and rarely a bluff.
 
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RamdeeBen

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bit harsh ramdeebam. but i have been surprised what ive seen turned over after ive called a shove with kings. more often that not its NOT aces but someone not knowing what to do after being 3bet. its usually AK or a big - middle pair so youre between 65-80% fav.
if it was 5bet (as mentioned in the advice) it would depend on stack sizes.

now, a shove post flop, I find, is always a big hand and rarely a bluff.

I don't mean to sound harsh. I think it's great when people put together an article like this but in my opinion, it's misleading.

I don't think in ANY cash game it's ever a good idea to fold kings to any sort of 4bets/5bets pre at the micros. I can guarantee that your kings are good more times than not in these spots over the long term it's only profitable to get kings all in at ANY stakes regardless and sure you run in to aces at times, it just happens but I'd never be 3betting/4betting then folding to a shove.
 
beanstalk

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OP. Don't have any zoom experience so was interested in your post. Your logic seems strong over all.

This one statement got me thinking though:
"There is no need to open 6's and below because people will always raise your limp"
Won't a thinking opponent put you on a small pocket pair when you do this and pot control or fold when you flop the set, thus eliminating your implied odds.
If you are happy to call a raise anyways, why not open it yourself? Are you worried about the 3 bet being too large?
 
TheGenera1

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OP. Don't have any zoom experience so was interested in your post. Your logic seems strong over all.

This one statement got me thinking though:
"There is no need to open 6's and below because people will always raise your limp"
Won't a thinking opponent put you on a small pocket pair when you do this and pot control or fold when you flop the set, thus eliminating your implied odds.
If you are happy to call a raise anyways, why not open it yourself? Are you worried about the 3 bet being too large?


Ill address this post and then get onto ramdeebam's.

Yes exactly regarding 6's and below. If you open them there is a reasonable chance you will be 3bet by someone with position on you and it gets really expensive calling all these raises. If you limp, an opponent will only really raise you up 4x the limp maybe 5 and then you have the odds to call. If you open 6's and get 3bet really large, which a lot of people do because they want to deny you set mining odds, you have to fold. So limping the small and mediums ensures you see as many flops as possible thus you will hit more sets.
It is true that a thinking opponent will put you on a set some of the time here, but at micro zoom, there are not too many of these players and the amounts of sets you hit by limp calling will far outweigh the pots you don't get value from by thinking opponents.

Ramdeebam, I understand why you might not appreciate my advice. I have seen you post in other topics and you seem a knowledgeable guy and I respect your views even if they constantly come across as a bit upfront, they are usually of good content. I don't want to spend too much time explaining my reasoning to you for the simple fact that you didn't read the whole article. I would urge you to go back and do so, and then see if you feel any different. I don't want this to serve as a conflict between us, but I would like to convince you that I am not a total waste of space. So here goes:

I will make a couple of key points. I state very clearly that it is just my experience with zoom and it DOES make me money. I state that it is just a thought process and people are perfectly entitled to ignore my advice, I also wanted to prompt a discussion about zoom so others could get involved and I am perfectly open to improvements on my game. There is no better way to generate discussion than to right an article about your own experiences.

What is also key, which you didnt spot because you failed to read the whole article, is that I dont advocate folding bottom set at all. I suggest that you should proceed with care. If the pot has been limped into multi way by several opponents, and then some guy just cant wait to get his money in, the chances are.... your tiny set is beat. If however you call an open raise for 3 or 4x, and the dude decides he wants to stack off on the flop then you are definitely calling that, because he is much more likely to have a high pair because of the open raise from EP or MP.

Another point is that I stated that I only played 2 and 5nl zoom, and that I have played about 10k hands of 10nl as well as watching my brother play 10nl all day long. I cant make this point more strongly, that after getting kings in preflop on a 5nl or 10nl zoom table, I was almost ALWAYS up against AA and sometimes KK. I got KK in preflop for a long stretch of hands before I came to the conclusion that it wasnt profitable to do so. Better to play KK Against a wider 3bet range and make your money with KK against JJ and QQ that way instead. I at no point said this applies to the stakes YOU are playing 25nl and above. In fact I categorically state that I do NOT play 25 zoom and you not listen to my advice when playing those stakes.

I will also like to post my graph for the last 2 weeks of zoom. I have been slacking a bit because I have been trying to learn STT's at the same time. This graph is only a tiny sample of my hands played on zoom. A lot of my hands were played without pokertracker because I have been staying with my mum for a few weeks prior to this, but when I got home I started using pokertracker again and this is what happened. I can assure you my profit is much larger if you count in the other hands of zoom I have been playing.

The graph is small and I can't seem to make it bigger, but the stats are
BB/100 4.00
15.5k hands.
$72profit.
 

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dazzammm

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what happened in the first 1800 hands? it is possible to copy the hand history from one computer to another to keep PT in line.

The play is pretty poor at the micro stakes - just had a guy call a 4x raise preflop, he called a 3/4 pot bet on flop and turn on a 2,4,5 board and then shoved when the gutshot 3 hit on the river.
Now ive seen your graph Im going to re-read your original post.
whats your username and ill stay away ;o).

one last thing, the original post used the term "w/e oop". what w/e mean?
 
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TheGenera1

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NGTheGenera1 is my PS name, now that you've read my strategy you can take me down more easily haha. I'm guessing I was just card dead for the first 2k hands.

w/e = what ever. So I'm saying "AK or what ever out of position."

Gl at zoom. :)

I really can't be arsed to copy the hands over and I hardly ever see my mum, but thanks for the suggestion.
 
acky100

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Lol claims of online poker being rigged... it's just not true.

I used to open 22+ from any position but I find it just isn't actually profitable. Acording to poker tracker low pocket pairs do more harm than good.

I agree that 22 and other small pp's are sometimes a fold pre especially from EP but do you really have a large enough sample to back up some of these claims you're making. If you've played less than 100k hands maybe even 200k then id say not. pocket pairs are super profitable, some advice just seems too nitty, like folding bottom set, there are times for it yeah but its 2 or 5nl and people are just gonna pay you off with all sorts.

It's good what you're doing and all and i can appreciate that. But there is a lot of fundamentally meh stuff in there too.

Folding KK at 2 and 5 zoom when you get 4bet or whatever is just burning money. Maybe you've only played a small amount of hands and think you're always running into AA or something but KK+ is in good shape against any range really. People always remember the times they run into AA but are fast to forget the times things went as they wanted.

I dont like limping with pocket pairs either, especially if you're gonna do it in later positions where you can steal the blinds, take the pot down with a c-bet or still hit a set and stack people a lot easier than if you limp and hit a set.

Again, not being a dick or anything, i think it's good that you're making this kind of guide for people just starting zoom or whatever.
 
TheGenera1

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1. Fold KK preflop to a 5 bet/don't call all in preflop with KK because you are up against AA almost EVERY TIME.
I don't care what anybody says to me because after playing thousands and thousands of hands at zoom, I have noticed that people almost never shove without AA or KK so you are a flip at best.
Exception to this rule is if you have notes or the villain is short stacked or you are in the blinds. Blind on blind play tends to be looser.


EP. Open 77+ for a 3x raise. If you miss your set you can C bet in a HU pot and try and take it down. (Ensure propper board texture)
Limp 44-66 and then call a medium sized raise from players to act behind you. Your limps will get raised often (which is good because when you do hit your set, you get paid off more)
There is no need to open 6's and below because people will always raise your limp.

MP. Open raise 44+ and call reasonable sized opens from in front of you with any PP. You can open all pocket pairs from here because it is less likely that you will be 3bet. You also open all pairs from here to help build a pot.


Thanks for reading.

I agree that 22 and other small pp's are sometimes a fold pre especially from EP but do you really have a large enough sample to back up some of these claims you're making. If you've played less than 100k hands maybe even 200k then id say not. pocket pairs are super profitable, some advice just seems too nitty, like folding bottom set, there are times for it yeah but its 2 or 5nl and people are just gonna pay you off with all sorts.

It's good what you're doing and all and i can appreciate that. But there is a lot of fundamentally meh stuff in there too.

Folding KK at 2 and 5 zoom when you get 4bet or whatever is just burning money. Maybe you've only played a small amount of hands and think you're always running into AA or something but KK+ is in good shape against any range really. People always remember the times they run into AA but are fast to forget the times things went as they wanted.

I dont like limping with pocket pairs either, especially if you're gonna do it in later positions where you can steal the blinds, take the pot down with a c-bet or still hit a set and stack people a lot easier than if you limp and hit a set.

Again, not being a dick or anything, i think it's good that you're making this kind of guide for people just starting zoom or whatever.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/quote]

Some fair points. I say in my op that you should be raising pocket pairs from MP and later. It's just from ep I limp the mediums. Do you think I should open the mediums as well for a 3x from ep, is that what you mean?

Also I never fold KK to a 4bet because that really would be silly :p but I can fold to a 5bet sometimes especially because I'll be oop and it's going to be shove and pray. Do you think I should just be 6bet shoving with the KK?
Maybe I'm just being an idiot and I should get KK in what ever, but It's just I found that I was running out of a bankroll with this strategy. I had 50 buy ins for 5nl when I started and I was fast approaching broke. Maybe I was unlucky to see AA so many times?
I know you guys are proven cash game winners but do you actually play Zoom for a large sample of hands? If you dont mind me asking when was the last time you played the micros akky cos I know you're a successful gold star player which you cant really get from grinding micros :p
 
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