Beating 1/2.

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davidhoyle107

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Hey guys. So, I consider myself pretty well trained. I've read a ton, understand pot equity, odds, ev, etc pretty well. But I'm still having trouble. Sometimes when I win a few I get lax with my bankroll and play higher tables like 2/5. I've played 4k hands and lost about 10 dollars. That's could be a lot worse, but it's not winning. I've noticed most of my losses are at 50bb table max but is, and am avoiding those now. I've gone through several 50 dollar bankroll, mainly due to raising stakes, and lost a well built bankroll in those stakes overnight. I feel the issue is bankroll management. Not skill. Any tips? Ps, I noticed I was too loose, so I tightened up some from 32 to I'd say 25. I need to be at 15-20 though.
 
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Are we talking 1c/2c or $1/$2? Being down $10 is nothing at $1/$2. It's still not much at 1c/2c, but it's a few buy-ins.

Also, 4k hands is not much at all. It could just be variance with that amount of loss in that amount of hands. It's hard to say anything with such a small sample size.

Edit: As for why this is an unreasonably small sample size considering the amount lost, imagine that three flips you lost had gone differently for you. Instead of losing $2 on each flip, you would have made $2. That would make your total profit/loss +$2. Three hands turn you from a small loser to a small winner. Three hands. Three hands is nothing. It's variance. This is why people say you need 10k hands or more to even tell if you're a winner or loser. And, the closer your winrate is to zero, the more hands you need.
 
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Roccoa3

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If you're talking about 1c/2c, bankroll management is key. $50 is not enough for cash. I typically play with around 50 buy ins in my bankroll, so that's around $100. I had similar problems, and it was frustrating because I would feel competent and be gradually winning until a big downswing and then a couple big pots crushed me. I think consistent bankroll management (if you start losing, move down in stakes) and not treating every premium hand like the nuts preflop (I used to treat K's, Q's, J's and AK like A's and lose an entire 400-500bb stack preflop), can get any player who is as well read as you to be profitable in 1c/2c.
 
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davidhoyle107

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Are we talking 1c/2c or $1/$2? Being down $10 is nothing at $1/$2. It's still not much at 1c/2c, but it's a few buy-ins.

Also, 4k hands is not much at all. It could just be variance with that amount of loss in that amount of hands. It's hard to say anything with such a small sample size.

Edit: As for why this is an unreasonably small sample size considering the amount lost, imagine that three flips you lost had gone differently for you. Instead of losing $2 on each flip, you would have made $2. That would make your total profit/loss +$2. Three hands turn you from a small loser to a small winner. Three hands. Three hands is nothing. It's variance. This is why people say you need 10k hands or more to even tell if you're a winner or loser. And, the closer your winrate is to zero, the more hands you need.
Yes. It was on several coin flip scenario all ins. I've actually won most of my 100bb tables. Again, it's those pesky all ins at the 50bb max tables.
 
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davidhoyle107

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If you're talking about 1c/2c, bankroll management is key. $50 is not enough for cash. I typically play with around 50 buy ins in my bankroll, so that's around $100. I had similar problems, and it was frustrating because I would feel competent and be gradually winning until a big downswing and then a couple big pots crushed me. I think consistent bankroll management (if you start losing, move down in stakes) and not treating every premium hand like the nuts preflop (I used to treat K's, Q's, J's and AK like A's and lose an entire 400-500bb stack preflop), can get any player who is as well read as you to be profitable in 1c/2c.
Very valid points. I more than likely will add more money when I get paid. I totally agree with you. I only go all in AA kk or sometimes qq. I call or 3 bet everything else. Or fold of course.
 
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davidhoyle107

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I also started moving UP stakes when I lose to counter balance. That's a no no.
 
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i don't think its mandatory to have a 100 roll to play at those levels-one thing u can do is take a pro-active approach thou every time you lose yer intial buy-in sit out until you've done a lil homework if you will-grisped poker has a lot of great vids on u-toobe -that helps me get right,another thing to remember at those levels your going to get called or raised more often then at a higher buy-in table-normaly at those levels a lot of begginners start out there -sometimes it doesn't even feel like poker playing there-should call it allin youll see that a lot more there
 
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davidhoyle107

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i don't think its mandatory to have a 100 roll to play at those levels-one thing u can do is take a pro-active approach thou every time you lose yer intial buy-in sit out until you've done a lil homework if you will-grisped poker has a lot of great vids on u-toobe -that helps me get right,another thing to remember at those levels your going to get called or raised more often then at a higher buy-in table-normaly at those levels a lot of begginners start out there -sometimes it doesn't even feel like poker playing there-should call it allin youll see that a lot more there
I LOVE his videos. He s helped a ton. I also like Dan Harrington 6 max online book. Both have taught me a lot.
 
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davidhoyle107

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Microgrinder courses too.
 
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karl coakley

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Hey guys. So, I consider myself pretty well trained. I've read a ton, understand pot equity, odds, ev, etc pretty well. But I'm still having trouble. Sometimes when I win a few I get lax with my bankroll and play higher tables like 2/5. I've played 4k hands and lost about 10 dollars. That's could be a lot worse, but it's not winning. I've noticed most of my losses are at 50bb table max but is, and am avoiding those now. I've gone through several 50 dollar bankroll, mainly due to raising stakes, and lost a well built bankroll in those stakes overnight. I feel the issue is bankroll management. Not skill. Any tips? Ps, I noticed I was too loose, so I tightened up some from 32 to I'd say 25. I need to be at 15-20 though.

You have a discipline problem. Until you address that, you will never "win" and be a profitable player. Losing a whole bankroll "overnight", moving up too quickly, going through multiple bankrolls, all discipline problems.

Usually you have a set amount of money for each session. When that is gone, you quit. I can't think of any situation where I would lose a whole bankroll.

I'd also caution you about assuming your losses are "not skill" and are a bankroll management problem. You really need to look at the hands and I'd bet you find holes.

The main thing is to be honest with yourself. I've sat down many different times and when reviewing hands or tournaments, just pretty much said I got outplayed. It happens.
 
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davidhoyle107

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You have a discipline problem. Until you address that, you will never "win" and be a profitable player. Losing a whole bankroll "overnight", moving up too quickly, going through multiple bankrolls, all discipline problems.

Usually you have a set amount of money for each session. When that is gone, you quit. I can't think of any situation where I would lose a whole bankroll.

I'd also caution you about assuming your losses are "not skill" and are a bankroll management problem. You really need to look at the hands and I'd bet you find holes.

The main thing is to be honest with yourself. I've sat down many different times and when reviewing hands or tournaments, just pretty much said I got outplayed. It happens.

I appreciate your honesty. I will try looking over my losing tables for that. I also tend to go up higher stakes when I am losing to cover my losses. This is where I think I run into trouble. Putting half my bankroll on a table is, like you said, a major discipline problem. I need to Make more bankroll and management rules of I want to succeed. I win quite often at 1/2 actually. It's when I go up I lose.
 
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davidhoyle107

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The only time I ever made money, I stayed in the same stakes the whole time. So switching is, I think my problem.
 
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davidhoyle107

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What rules do you guys typically follow with your bankroll? Has anyone here run into bankroll management problems? If so, how'd you get past it
 
vinnie

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You're playing 1c/2c. Unless you are unable/unwilling to deposit, you don't have bankroll concerns. Even if you are building up from freerolls, your bankroll limitations are not going to be defined by the more conventional ideals (# of buy-ins, risk of ruin, etc.) because you have no ability to move down. You are stuck playing with as many buy-ins as you have, until you are ready to move up. If you can't/won't rebuy and only have $10 online, then you are playing with 5 bullets--without regards to any other bankroll considerations.

On top of that, bankroll is not limited to how much you have online. It is the amount of money you have set aside, or are willing to contribute, to poker. If you are willing to add $20 a month (or whatever), from your income, to poker then that counts as part of your bankroll consideration as well.

I am pro-depositing, despite having built bankrolls from freerolls before. Building without being willing to deposit takes a lot of luck and patience. Even following Ferguson's rules (which are decent for building from $0), you'll spend the majority of your time down below $100 and then find your bankroll grows pretty well after that. You can keep building and busting a $5 roll (from freerolls and cash game variance) for months, or skip that and just add $20 a month until you are growing the bankroll each month from your play.

Edit: If you deposit, eventually the goal is to never sit with more than 5% on any one table. Even less than that, if you are playing higher and/or games like PLO where variance is higher. But, until you have $40 online, you are almost always going to play with more than 5%. And, you'll move up when you get to $100 or $150 (depending on how much you are ready to drop down).

Edit 2: http://www.pokerlistings.com/online-poker-s-greatest-challenges-pt-2-jesus-turns-0-into-10k <- link to Ferguson bankroll rules

You'll note it took him 9 months to get from $0 to $100 (and part of that was luck in binking a tournament for $104). After hitting $100, it only took 9 more months to get to $10,000. And, he's probably a lot better than most of us. Getting stuck down below $100 due to stubbornness is horrible. I forget exactly how long, but it took me well over a year, at first, to break $100. It was probably closer to two years. But, I was at the point where I refused to deposit and was going to build from nothing. I did it. I wouldn't do it again. I would just play like I had a $100 bankroll, and be willing to deposit if I had a bad run.
 
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lilcharlierich

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Once i get better at bidding its over
 
VovanBaron

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You are on the right way.Its simple.just play about 20k hands and try some soft to discover your leaks.be organized and positive.sometimes I make 8-9$ per 2 hours on 1/2c cash zoom and the right way to analyse your play is to do a distance counts.besides my winnings i also lose more cause less experiences than you in cash ) so go on ....per aspera ad astra..gl
 
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davidhoyle107

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Quick update. I started using better bankroll management and am doing much better. Staying within my stakes has helped me a ton. I went up 8 dollars in a small set of hands. It of been more, but every time I tripled up at a table everyone got really right so I tried loosening up. From now on, I'm only playing when the tables normal functioning. If the dynamics become tighter I'll just find a different table.
 
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romer533

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I switched to tournaments with cash, there is no big difference, I just always have to play from the position
 
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trentb1234

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You have a discipline problem. Until you address that, you will never "win" and be a profitable player. Losing a whole bankroll "overnight", moving up too quickly, going through multiple bankrolls, all discipline problems.

Usually you have a set amount of money for each session. When that is gone, you quit. I can't think of any situation where I would lose a whole bankroll.

I'd also caution you about assuming your losses are "not skill" and are a bankroll management problem. You really need to look at the hands and I'd bet you find holes.

The main thing is to be honest with yourself. I've sat down many different times and when reviewing hands or tournaments, just pretty much said I got outplayed. It happens.


Very well said and very solid advice
 
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