At what point should i redeposit?

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I've been getting completely pummeled by variance over the past few days, going from 24 BI at the lowest stakes offered on bovada (5NL) on Friday down to 7BI today... Should I stick it out and hope for a recovery or should I make another deposit for a full roll so I'm not playing scared money. Should I maybe even increase my BR requirements to 40BI instead of the more aggressive 20BI?

Should I wait if/until I bust to make another deposit?


It seems like variance is through the roof against bad players
 
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Jreece18

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Should've dropped down to 2nl when you went below 10BI at 5. Drop down to 2.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Should've dropped down to 2nl when you went below 10BI at 5. Drop down to 2.

Bovada doesn't have 2NL :/

I don't think there are any sites that offer softer games than bovada's 5NL so I think of 5NL on bovada as if it were 2nl on any other site
 
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TimovieMan

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If redepositing is not a problem, then how come you're playing "scared money"? If you bust, you redeposit, simple as that.


Also, against bad players your win rate should be so much higher that variance will be a lot lower because of it. You sure you're not adjusting incorrectly?
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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If redepositing is not a problem, then how come you're playing "scared money"? If you bust, you redeposit, simple as that.
I don't think its that the money is scared as much as it is that busting out just sucks. Feels like failure... If that makes sense.

Also, against bad players your win rate should be so much higher that variance will be a lot lower because of it. You sure you're not adjusting incorrectly?
This is true. Although I've been reviewing every all in hand and checking the EV, and for the most part the EV is positive, some are negative but just barely. Seems like a lot of my +EV situations just aren't realizing. And I'm pretty sure I'm doing the math right. I think when players want to stack off on every other hand the variance is higher than if they're afraid to stack off.

Maybe I'm not adjusting right. Maybe its poor table selection/seat selection. Which is one negative of BV is that you can't look for particular players.
 
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mbrenneman0

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Maybe if I bust out on BV ill give carbon a try. I've heard that's pretty soft, but has the benefit(depending how you look at it) of not being anonymous.
 
PapaC

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I deposited once 4 years for $50, cashout 2 times and still have a great BR on 2 sites. If you need to go to a lower level ACR has 2nl.
 
TimovieMan

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If you need to go to a lower level ACR has 2nl.
And one of the toughest player pools imaginable.

Bovada 5NL is going to top that.

Have you considered BetOnline as another alternative?
 
mbrenneman0

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And one of the toughest player pools imaginable.

Bovada 5NL is going to top that.

Have you considered BetOnline as another alternative?
I haven't considered it. I think I heard somewhere that carbon is the next softest for American players. Maybe ill look into bet

I think I just keep playing for now and if I bust ill deposit a roll on bet or carbon and if those dont work out then ill come back to bovada.

Maybe I'm just getting unlucky and my luck will turn around.
 
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I've had swings as large at 20 BI, although I'll admit that despite running bad and getting coolered several times in a row, I wasn't playing my A-game either. Probably about half of the downswing was avoidable and the other half wasn't.

If I were you, I'd stay on Bovada. It's such a great site from what I've heard and seen. Don't worry about redepositing unless you go fully bust. Just leave that 7 BI in there and continue playing 5NL, knowing that you can always redeposit at a later date if you lose that (but hopefully your upswing will start from today onwards!).

Continue to review hands and maybe watch some YouTube videos of other players beating 5NL on Bovada, then try to mimic them.
 
mbrenneman0

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Have you nitted up yet, especially in the blinds? Patience and good starting hands will go a long way...
no not yet, im at about 30/20 which i thought was pretty optimal in 6-max


I've had swings as large at 20 BI, although I'll admit that despite running bad and getting coolered several times in a row, I wasn't playing my A-game either. Probably about half of the downswing was avoidable and the other half wasn't.
Thats probably fair to say that its half avoidable, half bad luck.

If I were you, I'd stay on Bovada. It's such a great site from what I've heard and seen. Don't worry about redepositing unless you go fully bust. Just leave that 7 BI in there and continue playing 5NL, knowing that you can always redeposit at a later date if you lose that (but hopefully your upswing will start from today onwards!).

Continue to review hands and maybe watch some YouTube videos of other players beating 5NL on Bovada, then try to mimic them.
this definitely helps me feel better, ill check out youtube for videos of 5nl on bovada.

heres my all-in equity adjusted graph for the last 500 hands, which does look like its some of both, although i suspect that PT4 uses equity against the opponent's actual hand rather than a range, which i think is a little more results oriented. but im not sure how it comes up with equity adjusted. but it does show that its probably a combination of not playing my best combined with bad luck
 

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Jreece18

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Always better to assume it's losses due to skill than it is to assume it's luck though, even if it is just variance. Nitting up and seeing what changes is probably a good idea.
 
TimovieMan

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no not yet, im at about 30/20 which i thought was pretty optimal in 6-max
26/20 would be better. My advice would be to fold a bit more from the blinds so you're not OOP as often.

And frankly, 22/18 would probably be best while learning. Nit up!



Re: the graph.
You're 10 BIs down, and only 3 of those can be attributed to bad luck. That's still 7 BIs down. Variance will have it's say (especially since it's just 550 hands), but that's a short amount of time to drop 7 BIs.
 
DrazaFFT

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Yup, i dont like the 10% gap in vpip/pfr, would like more 26/20 too...

About the graph, i can post like 10 of similar to this so it doesn't mean much beside being on a downer, and yea ev is calculated against exact hand not against a range, its sklansky bucks not galfond bucks :D

What i would suggest is to make less "vs player" plays, or in another words, play the cards not the player if you get what i mean... Sometimes when watch your hands you seems to be inclined to make a move cuz youre up against specific player that you would less likely do against unknown, i would suggest to look at all players as unknown until you get better at adjusting to other players (abc)...

About redepositing i have never deposited to any poker room but busted like 5 or 6 free bankroll promotions, and 2 or 3 build from scratch bankrolls until i got better, i know the feeling of being busto and rethinking everything you know. I would suggest to deposit to deeper BR so you wont play with agro brm, but only this time, also before redeposit take a few days off poker by any mean, stay on forum but try to clear your mind of poker, let the knowledge settle, then restart...
 
mbrenneman0

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Always better to assume it's losses due to skill than it is to assume it's luck though, even if it is just variance. Nitting up and seeing what changes is probably a good idea.
Okay. I think I'm unsure just because I only have 2500 hands and that seems to be a really small sample size to da definitively. What's kind of vp/pfr should I aim for in 6max? 20/15?

I had a session today on two tables that seemed pretty consistently winning, at 25/20 for the session and for awhile, I was getting about 20bb/100 hands, but about half an hour into it, I made one big mistake that messed up my progress and not only ate up the 2$ I made but put me 2$ in the negative for the session. Maybe I'm playing right mostly but making occasional mistakes. The mistake here was calling an all in raise when I knew the passive player made his flush on the river, but I couldn't get off my pocket kings... I'll post the hand later tonight when I'm home from work...
Maybe if I could reduce the frequency of these big mistakes somehow? Would nitting up prevent me from making these mistakes?
 
TimovieMan

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Would nitting up prevent me from making these mistakes?
Nitting up will prevent you from compounding preflop mistakes with costlier postflop mistakes.

Nitting up isn't going to prevent you from getting married to KK even when it's obviously beaten.
When faced with a big river bet, before calling, go over everything again. Give it a few extra seconds of thought. You'll save yourself half a buy-in...
 
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Jreece18

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What I meant by that was assume your losses are from skill so you continue trying to improve. Even if a lot of it is from bad luck, you can always improve and that's the part of poker you have control over. It's better to think that way than to think you're helpless and just riding the bad luck wave.
 
mbrenneman0

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What I meant by that was assume your losses are from skill so you continue trying to improve. Even if a lot of it is from bad luck, you can always improve and that's the part of poker you have control over. It's better to think that way than to think you're helpless and just riding the bad luck wave.
Gotchya, that makes a lot of sense.
I'm planning on signing up for John anhalts roots course this weekend. So hopefully that will help
 
mbrenneman0

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Im not sure how i didnt see these two posts...

Yup, i dont like the 10% gap in vpip/pfr, would like more 26/20 too...

Im looking at my LeakTracker, and my fold to blind steal is too low (50% in SB and 45% in BB) and my VP/PFR is 43/23 in the SB, and 36/13 in the BB... so maybe i just found a big problem, way too defensive in the blinds

I bet if i correct those two things, my VP/PFR will look a lot better

and... just checked my results by position, and ive lost more money from the SB and BB than any other position...

About the graph, i can post like 10 of similar to this so it doesn't mean much beside being on a downer, and yea ev is calculated against exact hand not against a range, its sklansky bucks not galfond bucks :D
so the all in adjusted equity graph isnt really meaningful?
i wonder if theres a way to calculate/approximate galfond bucks for a whole hand database...

What i would suggest is to make less "vs player" plays, or in another words, play the cards not the player if you get what i mean... Sometimes when watch your hands you seems to be inclined to make a move cuz youre up against specific player that you would less likely do against unknown, i would suggest to look at all players as unknown until you get better at adjusting to other players (abc)...
that makes sense. ill try, but thats going to be a hard habbit to break.

About redepositing i have never deposited to any poker room but busted like 5 or 6 free bankroll promotions, and 2 or 3 build from scratch bankrolls until i got better, i know the feeling of being busto and rethinking everything you know. I would suggest to deposit to deeper BR so you wont play with agro brm, but only this time, also before redeposit take a few days off poker by any mean, stay on forum but try to clear your mind of poker, let the knowledge settle, then restart...
So like a 40BI bank roll?
I think im going to do what matthew said and just keep playing and see if i recover or bust. if i bust then ill take a few days off from playing, and just study, then a day to rest, then get back into it.




so i played a couple double up SnGs tonight, which seems to be a pretty nice format for anyone better than 50% of the player pool, which.... well... its bovada. its 6 players buy in at $5, win $10 if top 3, profit of $5. so i made 2 BI really easily. now im back up to 9BI. I wonder, since double ups seem to be a low variance game, if it would be a good idea to grind those out to build up a roll for cash games, or maybe Im just seeing the up side of it, and might get hit with an expensive downswing? who knows... I used to be pretty decent at play money SnGs when i played play money on facebook and the first poker book I got was on tournament play. its almost more about positional advantage than anything else. although the cards are also important in SnGs, not as much as position.
 
TimovieMan

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Im looking at my LeakTracker, and my fold to blind steal is too low (50% in SB and 45% in BB) and my VP/PFR is 43/23 in the SB, and 36/13 in the BB... so maybe i just found a big problem, way too defensive in the blinds
Yep. Defend less.
You don't want to play OOP anyway.

and... just checked my results by position, and ive lost more money from the SB and BB than any other position...
That's normal. Not only are you OOP, but you're paying blinds as well (even if you fold).

its almost more about positional advantage than anything else. although the cards are also important in SnGs, not as much as position.
Hint: that's the same in cash games!
Hence why you shouldn't be so eager to defend your blinds. ;)
 
mbrenneman0

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Yep. Defend less.
Hint: that's the same in cash games!
Hence why you shouldn't be so eager to defend your blinds. ;)

Haha, i should have seen that coming... definitely see your point
 
eberetta1

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I've been getting completely pummeled by variance over the past few days, going from 24 BI at the lowest stakes offered on bovada (5NL) on Friday down to 7BI today... Should I stick it out and hope for a recovery or should I make another deposit for a full roll so I'm not playing scared money. Should I maybe even increase my BR requirements to 40BI instead of the more aggressive 20BI?

Should I wait if/until I bust to make another deposit?


It seems like variance is through the roof against bad players

If you are losing no more than 10 buy ins a weekend, you could just be running not bad against variance, but against the rake. It is the silent player that poker players do not talk about. Hopefully, you are getting some kind of rakeback to make up for the rake being taken in the pots. It makes a breakeven player stand a chance to make a profit.

If I were to do a deposit, it would be for 40 buy ins, not 20. I prefer not doing deposits, instead finding sites that offer forum freerolls, where if I happen to lose my deposit, I still have a way of creating another bankroll without a deposit at that poker site. You do not get to become the biggest and baddest poker site by not offering freerolls. Bovada still has a lot to learn in this area.
 
mbrenneman0

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If you are losing no more than 10 buy ins a weekend, you could just be running not bad against variance, but against the rake. It is the silent player that poker players do not talk about. Hopefully, you are getting some kind of rakeback to make up for the rake being taken in the pots. It makes a breakeven player stand a chance to make a profit.
I think I've attributed about 50$ to rake so far over 2.5 weeks (and 2.5k hands), but I'm not sure if that numbers exact. Even so I'm still under break even. I think bovada takes a reasonable rake but their rakeback program is probably worth about 2% of rake but only gives out tournament tickets instead of directly to bankroll. I'm not sure if any us facing sites have good rewards programs.

If I were to do a deposit, it would be for 40 buy ins, not 20. I prefer not doing deposits, instead finding sites that offer forum freerolls, where if I happen to lose my deposit, I still have a way of creating another bankroll without a deposit at that poker site. You do not get to become the biggest and baddest poker site by not offering freerolls. Bovada still has a lot to learn in this area.
I'm not too worried about free rolls. I'd rather spend time building skills and volume in micro cash games.
 
dbchristy

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Ive never deposited on ACR. I would say do freerolls and earn your roll:) Unless youre rich..
 
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