An argument for folding AQo pre without 3 bet?

Thinker_145 · Jul 5, 2014

So I was facing this situation. UTG nit open raises 4xBB and the action folds around to me in the BB looking at AQo. Normally its a 3 bet or flat decision when I have AQ in the blinds but a very different thought occurred to me here. I am obviously not going to 3 bet UTG nit with AQ and I am not sure if calling is really the right thing to do either.

3 things will normally happen in this hand if I call. I dont hit and lose 3 BB which will happen most of the time. I hit and win a small pot. I hit and lose a big pot. I mean sure he might have AJs in his range but unlikely he is coming with KQs. I cant imagine much scenarios where it'll end up a big cooler hand in our favour.

So what do you guys say? Is it profitable to play AQo in this sort of hand or one should do the really tough part of folding it pre?

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WiZZiM · Jul 5, 2014

vs nits who bet large, yeah, just dump it and move on.

joe777 · Jul 5, 2014

I got to say its depends on the dynamic of the table.Against a TAG i would say it is an easy fold.But against a LAG i would reraise and even sometimes jammed the pot pre.

ILIKEFISH31 · Jul 5, 2014

Honestly? I kind of regard AQo as a garbage hand most of the time. A lot of people lose a lot of money with both AQo and AQs, but obviously AQs is much safer to play aggressively.

hffjd2000 · Jul 5, 2014

Against a nit, AK would be my minimum.

Just fold and move on to the next hand.

J_moly88 · Jul 5, 2014

I've been 3 betting with AQ a lot more recently. My thinking is when facing a nit from EP, they will be folding all the hands like middle and low PP and reraising with AA and KK.

If this player calls your 3 bet I would think you would mostly be looking at facing AK, AQ or QQ and can take the pot with a cbet most of the time.

RamdeeBen · Jul 5, 2014

Thinker_145 said:
So I was facing this situation. UTG nit open raises 4xBB and the action folds around to me in the BB looking at AQo. Normally its a 3 bet or flat decision when I have AQ in the blinds but a very different thought occurred to me here. I am obviously not going to 3 bet UTG nit with AQ and I am not sure if calling is really the right thing to do either.

3 things will normally happen in this hand if I call. I dont hit and lose 3 BB which will happen most of the time. I hit and win a small pot. I hit and lose a big pot. I mean sure he might have AJs in his range but unlikely he is coming with KQs. I cant imagine much scenarios where it'll end up a big cooler hand in our favour.

So what do you guys say? Is it profitable to play AQo in this sort of hand or one should do the really tough part of folding it pre?

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Firstly, is this 6max or full ring?

Vs a nit, I'm ok with flatting if it's full ring facing a 4x raise there could be arguments for folding and I'm fine with that if the guy is a big nit. The thing is with these nits, we have massive implied odds and in general they play there hands they hit very strong or very passively if they don't hit.

It's profitable to play post flop vs nits like a wide range of hands because they play their hands very face up. For example even if we give this guy TT+AJs+AQo+ then there are a wide variety of flops we can take the guy off his unpaired hands like he will just likely just check a 367 flop and we just stab and it's ours. If we flop a straight or two pair, you can likely stack this player as they are willing to stack over pairs nearly always so vs these kind of nits we can still play the hand profitably.

Just be careful if it's a A high flop as chances are if he's that tight he will have AK a lot but the player in question is very easy to determine his actual hand 9 times out of 10.

taban13 · Jul 5, 2014

Usually when I play the Utg with ACE Lady Motley then âčaŝe will fold. And if it suited the raise bet.

Thinker_145 · Jul 5, 2014

J_moly88 said:
I've been 3 betting with AQ a lot more recently. My thinking is when facing a nit from EP, they will be folding all the hands like middle and low PP and reraising with AA and KK.

If this player calls your 3 bet I would think you would mostly be looking at facing AK, AQ or QQ and can take the pot with a cbet most of the time.

An EP nit will fold to a button 3 bet not a blind 3 bet.

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stevenright · Jul 5, 2014

if you had a feeling, and are facing someone who you think will do that strange bet with something better then just lay it down and move on

nice play

rumsey182 · Jul 6, 2014

you guys are insane to fold AQ to an open closing action for 3 more BB seriously you can flop big hands,... like st8s, 2 pair and top top what the hell are you thinking!!!!

Thinker_145 · Jul 6, 2014

rumsey182 said:
you guys are insane to fold AQ to an open closing action for 3 more BB seriously you can flop big hands,... like st8s, 2 pair and top top what the hell are you thinking!!!!

What that logic we can flop a monster with ANY hand can't we?

Btw I did not infact fold the hand in question. I flopped TP but didnt win anything more since the V didn't c bet as probably he had a middle PP. This is what we are talking about that a nit's range doesn't include anything that AQ can really hurt.

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tomnovember · Jul 6, 2014

Thinker_145 said:
So I was facing this situation. UTG nit open raises 4xBB and the action folds around to me in the BB looking at AQo. Normally its a 3 bet or flat decision when I have AQ in the blinds but a very different thought occurred to me here. I am obviously not going to 3 bet UTG nit with AQ and I am not sure if calling is really the right thing to do either.

3 things will normally happen in this hand if I call. I dont hit and lose 3 BB which will happen most of the time. I hit and win a small pot. I hit and lose a big pot. I mean sure he might have AJs in his range but unlikely he is coming with KQs. I cant imagine much scenarios where it'll end up a big cooler hand in our favour.

So what do you guys say? Is it profitable to play AQo in this sort of hand or one should do the really tough part of folding it pre?

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3bet - fold may be a good choice for you. UTG will fold his weaker range and 4bet you with stronger range, so you can clearly know how strong you hand is.

Karozi615 · Jul 7, 2014

I think it's a pretty obvious flat here, not only in a vacuum but in this particular situation. I don't care how narrow the nits opening range is, if you don't think the nit is opening AJs KQs 88 99 TT JJ and other similar hands, then either they suck or your perception of what it means to be a nit is pretty far off. This hand isn't hard to play, at all. You call and flop a pair, you usually win. Nobody said you had to stack off 100 big blinds with top pair, how did you think that action would play out?

If you flop a pair you can easily go into check call mode, which likely won't even be necessary as the nit will probably check back turn after a weak c-bet.

The fact that this player is a nit (a weak player) gives you more incentive to call, your playing for stakes with a QQ4 flop or a JKT flop. Besides, your conscious of stack sizes and this player likely isn't.

AQ is just way to strong to fold. My calling range in this situation is largely dependent on other variables (mostly stack size, which you failed to include) but If your playing cash and your both relatively deep, not only should you be defending AQ, you should be defending hands like 7s6s PROFITABLY. The math isn't far off here. Your getting 2.25/1, folding is just an egregious error

In theory I like your idea, but you have the blockers to AA and QQ. Really all your ever worried about in this spot is AK, and KK. In scenario one you both flop an ace, and in scenario two you flop a Q (TPTK) and the nit bets KK for 3 streets of value. If you call with AQ and your opponent has TT and the flop comes AT4, there is NOTHING you can do about that.

Thinker_145 · Jul 7, 2014

Karozi615 said:
I think it's a pretty obvious flat here, not only in a vacuum but in this particular situation. I don't care how narrow the nits opening range is, if you don't think the nit is opening AJs KQs 88 99 TT JJ and other similar hands, then either they suck or your perception of what it means to be a nit is pretty far off. This hand isn't hard to play, at all. You call and flop a pair, you usually win. Nobody said you had to stack off 100 big blinds with top pair, how did you think that action would play out?

If you flop a pair you can easily go into check call mode, which likely won't even be necessary as the nit will probably check back turn after a weak c-bet.

The fact that this player is a nit (a weak player) gives you more incentive to call, your playing for stakes with a QQ4 flop or a JKT flop. Besides, your conscious of stack sizes and this player likely isn't.

AQ is just way to strong to fold. My calling range in this situation is largely dependent on other variables (mostly stack size, which you failed to include) but If your playing cash and your both relatively deep, not only should you be defending AQ, you should be defending hands like 7s6s PROFITABLY. The math isn't far off here. Your getting 2.25/1, folding is just an egregious error

In theory I like your idea, but you have the blockers to AA and QQ. Really all your ever worried about in this spot is AK, and KK. In scenario one you both flop an ace, and in scenario two you flop a Q (TPTK) and the nit bets KK for 3 streets of value. If you call with AQ and your opponent has TT and the flop comes AT4, there is NOTHING you can do about that.

Well that's a very nice explanation thank you.

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Vazh93 · Jul 11, 2014

AQo against a UTG nit who raised? Automatic fold for me. Would have to tank for a while if it was AQs.

chuG · Jul 15, 2014

Fold or flat, no re-raise for me.

kyndlyon · Jul 16, 2014

ILIKEFISH31 said:
Honestly? I kind of regard AQo as a garbage hand most of the time. A lot of people lose a lot of money with both AQo and AQs, but obviously AQs is much safer to play aggressively.

much safer? there is pretty much no difference between AQ suited or not

suby_rafael · Jul 16, 2014

I might not 3bet in this spot if the initial raise is such a knit. He might have us dominated or even have high pairs but for sure i am not folding this. I prefer calling as firstly we are getting a discount in big blind and it is strong enough to play even though we are out of position. Calling and evaluating post flop i what i would have done. I might not go all the way if i hit just an ace and villain shows strength. :icon_shak

Cymro · Jul 16, 2014

I think I'd flat it, then put in a 1/2, pot raise on the flop to see if he still likes his hand. I like donking against nits, because if they're not sure where they're at they'll probably fold to it, and you don't want them drawing for free.

JamaicanKid · Jul 16, 2014

Karozi615 said:
I think it's a pretty obvious flat here, not only in a vacuum but in this particular situation. I don't care how narrow the nits opening range is, if you don't think the nit is opening AJs KQs 88 99 TT JJ and other similar hands, then either they suck or your perception of what it means to be a nit is pretty far off. This hand isn't hard to play, at all. You call and flop a pair, you usually win. Nobody said you had to stack off 100 big blinds with top pair, how did you think that action would play out?

If you flop a pair you can easily go into check call mode, which likely won't even be necessary as the nit will probably check back turn after a weak c-bet.

The fact that this player is a nit (a weak player) gives you more incentive to call, your playing for stakes with a QQ4 flop or a JKT flop. Besides, your conscious of stack sizes and this player likely isn't.

AQ is just way to strong to fold. My calling range in this situation is largely dependent on other variables (mostly stack size, which you failed to include) but If your playing cash and your both relatively deep, not only should you be defending AQ, you should be defending hands like 7s6s PROFITABLY. The math isn't far off here. Your getting 2.25/1, folding is just an egregious error

In theory I like your idea, but you have the blockers to AA and QQ. Really all your ever worried about in this spot is AK, and KK. In scenario one you both flop an ace, and in scenario two you flop a Q (TPTK) and the nit bets KK for 3 streets of value. If you call with AQ and your opponent has TT and the flop comes AT4, there is NOTHING you can do about that.

Ohk ppl get out......nothing more to see here....U sir win the internet today!!! :icon_chee

+1
great answer :icon_salu

duggs · Jul 16, 2014

Except its a clear fold v very tight ranges, doesn't flop well enough enough, no implied odds and only reverse implied odds, we don't win enough to recoup losses preflop v a huge nit

Sneaky Feet · Jul 16, 2014

What was villain's regular opening bet? Most people open limp or bet 3bb but I've seen 4bb and 5bb being regular openers for some as well. To me this is either a 3bet or call depending on read. If you feel a 3bet would push him off and you're not comfortable with their style post flop then 3bet. If you want to try and build some value call and play villain out flop dependant. IMO I'm definitely not folding here.

Thinker_145 · Jul 16, 2014

duggs said:
Except its a clear fold v very tight ranges, doesn't flop well enough enough, no implied odds and only reverse implied odds, we don't win enough to recoup losses preflop v a huge nit

Ya that's what I have been thinking. Secondly there is nothing in a tight nit's UTG range that he won't call a 3 bet with IP unless we make a large enough bet to discourage set mining which can't be a profitable move since many times he is going to 4 bet.

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teepack · Jul 16, 2014

I think I would call to see what comes up on the flop.

An argument for folding AQo pre without 3 bet?

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