AQ - huge leak?

Mr Sandbag · Sep 28, 2013

This topic is solely based on my experiences at $1/$2 NL LIVE with AQo in early position and a raised pot.

During my last session, I was in the SB, someone in MP raised to $12, a few called, and I looked down at AQo. Although I tossed my call in rather quickly, it hit me even before the flop came down that calling could be rather unprofitable in that spot. After all, what is the true value of a hand like AQo? Well, generally in this type of loose/passive cash game, you're either pairing the board or folding, barring any unexpected straight draws or a nut flush draw with a suited flop. Not exactly a great hand for a raised, multiway pot. Calling just doesn't seem profitable to me in this spot unless I can be assured of getting to the flop heads up or with two other players.

Should I re-raise with it in early position? Let's say the same scenario happens, but this time instead of calling, I raise to $30. In a game like 1/2, I can almost guarantee a call from the original raiser and reasonably expect at least one more call depending on table dynamics. If I get two callers, I'm now heading to the flop with AQo, with a $100+ pot, and two other players who could very well be holding AK+ or medium pocket pair. I'm almost exclusively looking for a Queen high flop or folding. I could bet an all-rags flop and try to take it down, but if I get called, I'm surely beat and have to shut down after committing a large number of chips if the turn doesn't pair me up. Seems like a horrible, stupid way to lose a bunch of chips to passive fish.

It may seem nitty, but I think folding is generally the best course of action with AQo in this spot. I say generally because there will be circumstances where I feel like I can deviate. If the preflop raiser is raising a wide range of hands and I feel like I can get to the flop heads up or with two opponents, I should probably make the call or, better yet, re-raise if I'm confident I can take the pot down there or at least go heads up. Unfortunately, in a 1/2 game, it is somewhat uncommon to get to a flop heads up even in a 3-bet pot and definitely in a raised pot. AQo is not a hand I want to play in early position, multiway, with a large pot, and if I can't at least limit the number of players heading to the flop, throwing it into the muck could be the best route to take.

Thoughts?

BenSprocket · Sep 28, 2013

I can even persuade myself to fold AQo UTG as well as in EP in an unraised pot.

I feel it is a poor hand in EP and am often reluctant to call a raise with it in later positions. It always gets tossed to 3-bets.

An extremely overrated hand. And thankfully, many players do indeed overrate it.

Snakmacher · Sep 28, 2013

I myself mostly call or reraise when I hold AK, AQ or QK and mostly I am folding medium pairs and sometimes even pairs like QQ, JJ because I have better winning rate when holding AK and so on than a monster pair. And if we consider the situation that we are holding QQ or KK and go all in there is still the chance that one or two players (fishies) will call even with trash hands and that if you are unlucky like me they will land with two pairs or better...

Beanfacekilla · Sep 28, 2013

A-Q is somewhat of a trouble hand. However, there are many things to consider when debating calling from the SB.

First, who raised the pot? What position are they in? People will often open very wide ranges on $1/$2. I see people opening K-J, Q-J, K-Q, Q-10, etc, in LP.

There really is no "one size fits all" advice for poker.

Second, you have to consider the images of the people who already called the raise. If a nit called, you could be dominated by A-K perhaps.

However, generally speaking, I think I would call from SB against a random opponent. I would see the flop, and if I don't smash it, let it go.

Now let's say an LAG opponent is the one who raised.
Perhaps we could 3-bet, and bet almost all flops (except extremely wet boards we did not connect with). If you have the guts to play right back at a LAG, they will rarely call you down without strong holdings. Aggression wins pots.

So I guess my advice would be that continuing with A-Q in EP just depends.

BenSprocket · Sep 28, 2013

Beanfacekilla said:
just depends.

The answer to almost every single poker-strategy question.

Mr Sandbag · Sep 28, 2013

Beanfacekilla said:
A-Q is somewhat of a trouble hand. However, there are many things to consider when debating calling from the SB.

First, who raised the pot? What position are they in? People will often open very wide ranges on $1/$2. I see people opening K-J, Q-J, K-Q, Q-10, etc, in LP.

There really is no "one size fits all" advice for poker.

Second, you have to consider the images of the people who already called the raise. If a nit called, you could be dominated by A-K perhaps.

However, generally speaking, I think I would call from SB against a random opponent. I would see the flop, and if I don't smash it, let it go.

Now let's say an LAG opponent is the one who raised.
Perhaps we could 3-bet, and bet almost all flops (except extremely wet boards we did not connect with). If you have the guts to play right back at a LAG, they will rarely call you down without strong holdings. Aggression wins pots.

So I guess my advice would be that continuing with A-Q in EP just depends.

I don't think that would be too profitable. That's how I was playing it most of the time. You are in SB, so you are first to act. If you miss the flop, you check, and a good percentage of the time, villain will be betting whether or not he currently has you beat. You'll be missing more often than hitting and will be losing a lot of money. Simply reversing positions with villain would make the hand profitable for us, I believe, because if he misses, he will probably check and give us an opportunity to take the pot even when we miss.

Now let's say a LAG opponent was the one who raised and gets a couple callers. The only way I'm 3-betting here is if I'm really confident I can fold the callers and get heads up to the flop. Worst case scenario is the LAG player folds and one or more of the callers calls your 3-bet. You are dominated for sure and are pretty much smashing or folding.

In my last session, I was BB and the player to my left raised to $10, which was very standard for him when first to act and entering the pot. He got 3-4 callers. When the action came around to me, I looked down at a pair of 10's and squeezed for $70. To my surprise, the raiser to my left thought about it and took about a minute to fold and at least one or two callers thought about it before folding also. Point is, I'm almost positive that if I had done a standard 3-bet, I would have gotten probably 2 callers. If I had held AQo in this position, thrown out a standard 3-bet, and got multiple callers, I'm in a bad situation.

Marsd · Sep 28, 2013

I think it does depend, but I also agree with what you say about playing out of position.-- What type of style do people perceive you as playing at the table or what do you want them to think?-- if you play more on the tight side then I think theres nothing wrong with folding AQ in this spot more often than not in a multiway.
I dont like playing out of position either when I am not the aggressor, I find that I usually lose those hands more often than not, so if I am playing them passively it will be with something like a PP where I can set mine or a hand like AK-
I would probably take a look with AQ suited though- I wonder if thats a leak- those suited aces--
If im at a table in this spot and I'm still new to the table and I dont know anything about the players I think I would see the flop the first time with my hand just to see how it plays out-- but I dont always do that-- I sometimes just dont feel lucky about the hand and fold it- switch things up---

the more i think about it the more I think it is a leak-- but I do think you should play it every now and then out of postion--

rumsey182 · Sep 28, 2013

Mr Sandbag said:
This topic is solely based on my experiences at $1/$2 NL LIVE with AQo in early position and a raised pot.

During my last session, I was in the SB, someone in MP raised to $12, a few called, and I looked down at AQo. Although I tossed my call in rather quickly, it hit me even before the flop came down that calling could be rather unprofitable in that spot. After all, what is the true value of a hand like AQo? Well, generally in this type of loose/passive cash game, you're either pairing the board or folding, barring any unexpected straight draws or a nut flush draw with a suited flop. Not exactly a great hand for a raised, multiway pot. Calling just doesn't seem profitable to me in this spot unless I can be assured of getting to the flop heads up or with two other players.

Should I re-raise with it in early position? Let's say the same scenario happens, but this time instead of calling, I raise to $30. In a game like 1/2, I can almost guarantee a call from the original raiser and reasonably expect at least one more call depending on table dynamics. If I get two callers, I'm now heading to the flop with AQo, with a $100+ pot, and two other players who could very well be holding AK+ or medium pocket pair. I'm almost exclusively looking for a Queen high flop or folding. I could bet an all-rags flop and try to take it down, but if I get called, I'm surely beat and have to shut down after committing a large number of chips if the turn doesn't pair me up. Seems like a horrible, stupid way to lose a bunch of chips to passive fish.

It may seem nitty, but I think folding is generally the best course of action with AQo in this spot. I say generally because there will be circumstances where I feel like I can deviate. If the preflop raiser is raising a wide range of hands and I feel like I can get to the flop heads up or with two opponents, I should probably make the call or, better yet, re-raise if I'm confident I can take the pot down there or at least go heads up. Unfortunately, in a 1/2 game, it is somewhat uncommon to get to a flop heads up even in a 3-bet pot and definitely in a raised pot. AQo is not a hand I want to play in early position, multiway, with a large pot, and if I can't at least limit the number of players heading to the flop, throwing it into the muck could be the best route to take.

Thoughts?

im sorry but the thought of folding preflop a top 6.5% hand in a single raised pot with multiple callers is just insane you do realize that even if that's the worst hand your calling with your hand range would be : 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ it is hard to be much nittier then that. Also your saying it could be unprofitable but haven't considered the fact that a "few" players calling likely means you have incredible direct odds let alone the implied odds of the opening raiser having a likely strong starting range so if we do end up crushing the board he is likely strong enough some % of the time to actually pay us off if we donk or c/r

If your concerned about "either pairing or folding" i suggest you look at a program called flopzilla and see the %'s of how often you make enough equity otf and also consider that we will not always see cbets from people in multiway pots so some of the time we are calling pre to see a turn with a high equity hand

If your not calling with AQo then what are you calling with pre? What is your squeezing range (if you have one)?

To answer the question of should i reraise i would need to know how many people are in the pot, any reads, positions, ect but likely i would prefer to have a larger calling range and include this in it most of the time and not have much of a 3 betting range but it really depends

folding pre is ubsurd, even if you know the person opening pre is only opening a range that is ahead of your and lets assume a rather tight range for idk 3 callers you still have good equity:

Board:

Equity Win Tie
UTG 30.27% 29.25% 1.02% 88+, ATs+, KQs, AKo
UTG+1 17.42% 16.35% 1.07% 66+, A3s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo
UTG+2 17.33% 16.25% 1.08% 66+, A3s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo
MP1 17.40% 16.32% 1.08% 66+, A3s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo
SB 17.57% 15.83% 1.74% AQo

that's relatively even equity totally ignoring implied odds and people start calling with wildly wide ranges live once a few people have called i really can't see how you can justify a fold pre

Bowman26 · Oct 1, 2013

In that situation I would have tossed the hand and waited for the next one. AQ looks good until the flop misses just like AK looks good until the flop misses. I might have stuck around for a flop with AKs but AQo I would toss especially from early position. Just not a strong enough starting hand and one that might just get you in trouble in the end.

jcla6985 · Oct 1, 2013

aq has been a tricky hand for me but heres what ive learned

.early position fold
mid to late position with no raises...raise to 3 bb or whatever ur stand raise is
now when you get reraised the general rule is fold,if your playing low stakes tables and have a hud or know its a fish or loose loose player a call is rarely acceptable.

Mr Sandbag · Oct 1, 2013

rumsey182 said:
im sorry but the thought of folding preflop a top 6.5% hand in a single raised pot with multiple callers is just insane you do realize that even if that's the worst hand your calling with your hand range would be : 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ it is hard to be much nittier then that. Also your saying it could be unprofitable but haven't considered the fact that a "few" players calling likely means you have incredible direct odds let alone the implied odds of the opening raiser having a likely strong starting range so if we do end up crushing the board he is likely strong enough some % of the time to actually pay us off if we donk or c/r

If your concerned about "either pairing or folding" i suggest you look at a program called flopzilla and see the %'s of how often you make enough equity otf and also consider that we will not always see cbets from people in multiway pots so some of the time we are calling pre to see a turn with a high equity hand

If your not calling with AQo then what are you calling with pre? What is your squeezing range (if you have one)?

To answer the question of should i reraise i would need to know how many people are in the pot, any reads, positions, ect but likely i would prefer to have a larger calling range and include this in it most of the time and not have much of a 3 betting range but it really depends

folding pre is ubsurd, even if you know the person opening pre is only opening a range that is ahead of your and lets assume a rather tight range for idk 3 callers you still have good equity:

Board:
Equity Win Tie
UTG 30.27% 29.25% 1.02% 88+, ATs+, KQs, AKo
UTG+1 17.42% 16.35% 1.07% 66+, A3s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo
UTG+2 17.33% 16.25% 1.08% 66+, A3s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo
MP1 17.40% 16.32% 1.08% 66+, A3s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo
SB 17.57% 15.83% 1.74% AQo

that's relatively even equity totally ignoring implied odds and people start calling with wildly wide ranges live once a few people have called i really can't see how you can justify a fold pre

I don't think you read my original post thoroughly. Obviously there will be instances where you are calling, but in early postflop position, I don't see how it can be profitable. With what hands am I calling a preflop raise with multiple callers in the SB? AK+ or pairs (set mining) probably. Calling a preflop raise with a hand that does not play well in multiway pots against loose/passive calling stations is NOT PROFITABLE. In late position, yeah I'm calling. Middle position - depends on table dynamics. But in the SB? Seems like a good way to lose chips.

And the assumption in bold is terrible. If someone raises preflop and gets 3 callers in a 1/2 live game, there's almost no chance that even 3 out of 4 of those players are tight at all.

aa88wildbill · Oct 1, 2013

I would have folded, unless I knew I was playing with a bunch of loose players. In that situation it seems like it's almost always, a fold, or some type of RE raise.

baudib1 · Oct 1, 2013

squeezing > calling > folding

don't be a nit, this is $1/$2 live and players are terrible. you will be folding the best hand way too often and folding great equity even more often to even consider this.

smidjet · Oct 1, 2013

it is just me but when i play any hand multi players i am going into it with the hope of making a 5 card hand for a big pot. which means my preflop call is a bet i am willing to part with on the flop. in an AQo i amk not looking for an ace or a queen , maybe an ace and a Q but AQo is an easily dominated hand with a single pair and clearly so in a multi called raised flop.any flop that hits AQ is probably all over other hands also, so like i say i am looking for broadway or filling up or at least 2 pair or giving up my $12 and playing the next 1. like i say thats just me

heAdstroMan · Oct 1, 2013

always open AQ, folding is extremely stupid.

as for call vs 3b, both prob fine, would poss depend on the opponent.

Mr Sandbag · Oct 1, 2013

heAdstroMan said:
always open AQ, folding is extremely stupid.

as for call vs 3b, both prob fine, would poss depend on the opponent.

How can I open after a raise when I'm in the SB?

ezevan1022 · Oct 1, 2013

Folding pre is just flat out right way to nitty. Calling is fine you can dominate worse ax and qx holdings, this is where playing the player is important. Now if you know the guy is a super nit and only raises 10s+ and ak you should find a fold

Aces2w1n · Oct 2, 2013

How I play Aq.... I like to 3bet with this hand IP ... Since a 4bet generally means your behind and it's an ez fold... Tricky hand and theres a few ways you can play this.

Lets say comes the flop and we have AQ IP.... flop comes out A/10/8 rainbow... if EP raises we could re-raise them and take out the AK hand if the player is TAG I know a few good players play weak kickers this way and generally if you choose the right opponent you can get ppl with AK to fold but you have to be convincing and your table image would be extremely important.

If you got a bad table image I like to check the flop if I hit the A because it makes the guys with a weaker Ace think they are good and you lose less if you run into AK ... Anyways that's my input.

Beanfacekilla · Oct 2, 2013

Aces2w1n said:
How I play Aq.... I like to 3bet with this hand IP ... Since a 4bet generally means your behind and it's an ez fold... Tricky hand and theres a few ways you can play this.

Lets say comes the flop and we have AQ IP.... flop comes out A/10/8 rainbow... if EP raises we could re-raise them and take out the AK hand if the player is TAG I know a few good players play weak kickers this way and generally if you choose the right opponent you can get ppl with AK to fold but you have to be convincing and your table image would be extremely important.

If you got a bad table image I like to check the flop if I hit the A because it makes the guys with a weaker Ace think they are good and you lose less if you run into AK ... Anyways that's my input.

I like this post.

I am generally more passive than you at the table though. I don't 3-bet too often. The times I play very aggressive are when the table is nitty and we are just pushing $12 pots back and forth all night.

However, in live poker, people will open frequently with much much worse than A-Q. How I will proceed with it OOP just depends on the opponent(s).

Aces2w1n · Oct 2, 2013

Very true and there tends to be a lot more chasers/limpers. And if one person raises to $12 almost the rest follow by calling.

3bet is just a great way to minimize the callers and to really find who has a hand to follow through. But ofc if your at a really crazy table they'll still call again or try to reraise with 2's even.

I've sat down before at a table the blinds put down 1 and 2... Then a straddle bet, and then the next guy stradled his straddle.... It was nuts and I thought at this stage if I don't have premiums i'm just folding because this will last for like 10 or 15mins max before the maniacs cash someone up

loomis311 · Oct 2, 2013

In general, I think folding aq is not good. There are a few different ways you can play this hand. It appears you are just looking at the face value of the cards and playing fit or fold. You have to be watching your opponents and figure out their tendencies. Then you can form an effective strategy to best exploit them.

For example, if he is really aggressive you can 3bet or call flop and check raise good flops. If he plays tight, you can 3bet, bet flop, and give up on turn if unimproved. It all depends on the player on how I will play it.

In general I really like 3bet preflop because you are taking the initiative back and you can win more pots that way.

AQ - huge leak?

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