Originally Posted by twizzybop
The SB, one should be folding more from because stats clearly show that it isn't very profitable.
I love all the math stuff but i think that the math aspect of the game, especially if we talk about no limit, it doesnīt have to be taken just as numbers show. Stats may say than it isnīt profitable to limp from the SB based just in hand vs hand odds, but youīre applying that stats on the hypothetical situation that 24 will lose more than J8 (just an example). The reality is that most time J8 will win against 24 at the showdown. Stats consider a J8 winner against 24 if community cards like this: AK6T3 comes. Technically that is true, but if we play that hand into a real game situation, it may happen that 24 win more than J8, because it may be that there isnīt showdown.
The math aspect of anything must be interpreted to understand its real use. So what i say in relation to limping or not from the SB is this:
There are basically 2 situations where a SB limp is good:
1) If you have suited connectors or middle-low pocket pair and there are some limpers, a call is justified by the odds, but a raise may get you in trouble if youīre reraised. Here the implied odds plays a huge factor, especially with low pocket pair. The same situation applies if everyone folds to you and youīre heads up, but in my opinion there a raise is better than a call.
2) This is the most important one for this threadīs discussion, because itīs about marginal hands. As i said before the math aspect of the game must be interpreted. Maybe stats shows that with 24 on the SB iīll lose against the BB X% of the time (thinking in random hands that BB could have). But the truth is that i have a strong read on the BB and i think i can outplay him postflop, so that X% which in theory is against me, now i change it to make it be in my favour. Althought it seems that according to what i said when youīre SB you should always call, there are some problems with this point. a) You must be able to know if you really are able to outplay the BB or not. If you canīt, then the odds that makes you the loser with junk hands will be applied and are going to lose lot of money. Be honest to yourself and leave the ego at the door when you decide to play against him because you think you can outplay him postflop. b) If the BB notices that you have been calling too much from the SB he probably will start raising more, making your calls a bad play. Also you have to know if for his nature heīs aggressive and raises most time in the battle of blinds. In that case is better to raise or fold instead of limping. c) If there are more limpers, lets say 1, 2 or 3, then you must be able to outplay all your opponents, which is hard, because youīre facing all of them and the odds of winning the hand decreases (althought the pot increases, but not enough to make a limp worth all the time).
So my main point is that you should limp just when you have a "limp hand" (PP or SC) and when you can outplay your opponent postflop and you know you wonīt be raised (most time) preflop, because in that case your hand value isnīt too much important. I could also add "trap hands" like J9, 36, 75, etc. when there are more limpers.
After what i said it may seem that i play almost every hand from the SB, but the true is that i donīt (sorry for not having the % of limps in the SB i do, but i donīt use PT). The key is to be selective according to the situation.
Saying that, excuse me if i "revive" the fight about the copyright and all that stuff but i want to make a little comment about that:
Twizzy, iīm not going to argue about if you were right or not, because itīs not my matter and i donīt know anything about your private conversations about this theme, but i think that you have an ego problem that doesnīt allow you to keep a discussion being able to accept that youīre wrong. Iīm not talking just about this thread, iīm talking about a similar attitude you have been showing in some post where you donīt seem to be open to accept the critics and learn. Itīs good to accept when you are wrong, you donīt have to be ashamed of that. The goal of a discussion is to reach to a common point (where you were completely right, completely wrong, or both opinions had some truth), and not to show that youīre right without listening and accepting your opponentīs points. For example, iīm able to accept if now you or FPaulsson donīt agree with what i said about the SB and you give valid points, because i made my post to know if iīm thinking correct or if iīm not to learn from my mistake.
I hope you take this as a constructive critic, thereīs no reason to get angry with anyone if they think different than you. Just try to give your points with good manners, itīs easier to accept them in that way.
Ah, and BTW the hand you showed is not a good argument for this discussion. That player didnīt limp, he called a raise, which is completely different. And even if he would limped instead of calling a raise, you said that the hand clearly shows de EV. How can 1 hand show the EV. I could show you a hand i played few hours ago where there were some limpers and i limped from the SB with 63 offsuited. The flop came 257 and i doubled up. Saying that i played the hand well or that it shows why you should call from the SB, would be being results oriented. It wouldnīt be a valid argument, because if we are talking about EV we must refer to the long term, not to a single hand.