Another player trying to beat micros

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MartyMcFly42

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Hello, I am playing on PS, it will be a year soon. The micros I play are the lowest, NL2. I at first wanted to accumulate some "played hands" before making an analysis of it - to have a proper representative sample that can help me.

But I just either can't understand what I am doing wrong or how to fix the leak, stop slowly bleeding. I use PokerTracker for keeping an eye on my hands and these stats are based on 105,233 hands I have played since January 1st:
VPIP: 11.89
PFR: 7.82
BB/100: -2.59 - very slowly bleeding
CBet F: 53.16
Fold to F CBet: 82.39
Total AF - 3.26
the rake of about $100 this year
there are more stats if you want/need

I've tried reading forums - problems and questions of others and let it make me a better player. When I started I had a big problems remembering all the slang poker words, all the concepts (smile or not, but "call 20" took me some time to understand).

I try to be a very systematic person, if the pocket pair I have preflop has ~12% chance to make a triple, I understand that it sometimes won't make a triple for 30 ocassions and yet sometimes it will make a triple every third hand. I try to look on the bigger picture, the long run. Thus why I first accumulated these statistics, while trying to absorb the poker know-what. I also tried books, but find many of these hints and guides either very difficult to understand, or the concepts difficult to use on these lowest of all - NL2.

I use some kind of custom made HUD to have some read on players, I limit myself (because I am beginner) not to play on 10 windows like some more skilled do - yet I use PS tagging (colours) system to see how many tables a person plays on. Green are 1-2, cyan are 3-9, blue are 10-19, dark blue are 20+. I mark with purple those who have "tables currently on" hidden and just look at list of NL2 tables currently on and count how many times these "purple" players are there, then assign appropriate colour.

I have tried to analyse my most (C-lost) losing hands and I often lose to hands like Full house, Flush, Four of a kind.


All in all, last year I was bleeding big time, losing fast and furiously - since January 1st I have slowed it down a lot, but am still steadily losing. Very slowly, mind you, but I am. Thus I am asking you for help, Cardschat players.
 
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NorskNewman

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Hi. I play 2nl as well on pokerstars and full tilt. I can tell you that the stake can be beat by playing tight like you seem to be. I assume this is full ring stats. Without any knowledge on your play and going off just what I struggled with personally; I would have you take a look at your hands where you are losing the most.

Getting it in too light is something that held me back before. I still do honestly but not nearly as bad.
Players at this level pretty much play with their cards face up. As far as marking all these different players; you'll grow tired of that. I now only mark the fish and maniacs. If a reg makes some awful play I'll mark him.

Priorities at this level for me are 1. bankroll management 2. Get value. Have Patience. 3. No Slow-playing unless quads or top full house. 4. Raise or fold unless set mining. 5. Don't get it in light

Hope this helps. This level is a circus but its full of bad players. That's what we want.
 
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MartyMcFly42

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Hi. I play 2nl as well on Pokerstars and full tilt. I can tell you that the stake can be beat by playing tight like you seem to be. I assume this is full ring stats. Without any knowledge on your play and going off just what I struggled with personally; I would have you take a look at your hands where you are losing the most.

Getting it in too light is something that held me back before. I still do honestly but not nearly as bad.
Players at this level pretty much play with their cards face up. As far as marking all these different players; you'll grow tired of that. I now only mark the fish and maniacs. If a reg makes some awful play I'll mark him.

Priorities at this level for me are 1. Bankroll management 2. Get value. Have Patience. 3. No Slow-playing unless quads or top full house. 4. Raise or fold unless set mining. 5. Don't get it in light

Hope this helps. This level is a circus but its full of bad players. That's what we want.

Thanks for reply.

1) If by BM you mean - not to play too high stakes, then by playing the lowest I should pass this goal. I intend to move up only when I win back what I lost over the months - so far, after 9 months of playing, the game cost me about $120. For someone for example from USA, that wouldn't be much. For me, it's nothing disastrous that would ruin me - I have much more money saved, but I only add another $20-$25 when I lose what I have.

2) The patience thing is something I hope I am getting right. At least something and you have to start somewhere, build block by block eh?

3) I'm a bit guilty there, mostly due to my cluelessness when to play aggressively. In other words, I try NOT to slow play, but often fail to push-to-fold well and end up losing money

4)2 factors why I mostly set mine. I have quite low VPIP, so a lot of hands I play are pocket pairs which I set mine. Second reason is that (and you can laugh if you want, or at least grin) when being dealt TT, JJ, QQ - I often play them badly - one or two higher cards on table scare me easily and it's suddenly much more difficult to play (well).
I can't begin to count how many times I CBetted with QQ on flop like 2-6-K (no suit draw) or even with QQ on flops like 4-7-J (no suit draw) - having my CBet re-raised. So many times I found myself slowly or fastly got into big pots which I lost because the villain slow played AA or KK. So many times.
 
Ian the Fish

Ian the Fish

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Yeah, man! Keep on grinding! I feel that you are on the right path. Just have patience and try to get as much value as possible from each hand. Even from those, that you don't play - try to get a read on your opponents. Take notes on each player - some little information can be critical to completely drain a player's bankroll empty.

Also, play your big hands the same way you play your small hands / bluffs. Although, I would not suggest bluffing almost ever. Especially in these limits.

Umm, as for BM - a good rule of thumb is to move up a limit when you have about 80 - 100 buy-ins of the previous one (e.g. you should consider moving on from NL $2 once you have about $160 - $200 and you feel that you are consistently making a profit).

Good luck and try to learn something new every time you play!
 
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Myar

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Blackrain has a book, search the forums to find the site. When I could play on PS I played very similar to him, and with him a lot as well. I respected his play before he put the book out etc. If it is still anything remotely like it was when black friday hit the US players then follow his advice, and profit.

Here is his youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/user/BlackRain79Poker
 
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MartyMcFly42

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^ I watched his intro video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tXDyzPCs9U
And he raises 5 important points. As the video is short and easy to understand, I will answer it here too:
1)My VPIP of 12 should be OK
2)I CBet when I connect and even when I don't, I hope to have some representative stats on the villain (his Fold to CBet rating high)
3)As he says, it's very hard to learn/master/remember this, to play in position. I see the advantages of being in position - more info on villain, how he reacts. But mastering this? Far from it
4)Very difficult to find fishes nowadays, most players that are on NL2 tables (full ring - 9 players) have VPIP under 20.

Yeah, sometimes I see a player who is clearly a fish, raising a lot, bleeding dollars like a crazy. But they are rare. And there are 7 other players hungry for the fish, mostly skilled players. It seems to me at least.

5)No sell, being on tilt is something I try to avoid. Not saying I never tilt, but I trust I can avoid it, as I am a man of logical thinking, statistics is my god :-D so to say.
 
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rhombus

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GL at the Micros

3 Most important Tips
1) Patience
2) Value Bet
3) Dont bluff

I aint got no patience, dont value bet enough and cant help myself whe it comes to Bluffing. :p
 
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MartyMcFly42

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^ Out of these three, I have a patience and I don't bluff (except as I mentioned - when I bluff against those I suppose will fold).

I don't Value Bet often enough though (at least I think).


EDIT: I actually find joy in patience. When I resist the temptation to act rashly, out of emotions instead of logic, I feel a bit better every time I do that.
 
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quick

quick

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^ Out of these three, I have a patience and I don't bluff (except as I mentioned - when I bluff against those I suppose will fold).

I don't Value Bet often enough though (at least I think).


EDIT: I actually find joy in patience. When I resist the temptation to act rashly, out of emotions instead of logic, I feel a bit better every time I do that.

Definitely value bet more. I did;t do that much for a while, I started doing it more and saw immediate improvements. However, make sure you know when to throw away a hand you're value betting. And know sometimes you'll value bet correctly and really be ahead with it. But then someone with 10 2 off suit will call you to the river to beat you. So don[t be scared of that, keep value betting. But take it from me, make sure you know when the value bet is lost.
 
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NorskNewman

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Bankroll management is something you should look into. Having a plan is a good idea. Essential. Definitely take a look at www.blackrain79.com .
 
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MartyMcFly42

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Bankroll management is something you should look into. Having a plan is a good idea. Essential. Definitely take a look at www.blackrain79.com .

Watching his "how to play AK" video right now - he talks in a way that's easy for me to understand. And AK is one of my leaks actually.

I am not sure though if I understand what you (and others) are trying to say with Bankroll management. When looking at the site where which I read first in my poker play - Pokerstars school
https://www.pokerschoolonline.com/articles/bankroll-management
then I can say I am recreational player, not depositing more money than about 2% of my monthly income. These money I consider a "learning cost" - to learn I have to play a lot of hands, which will mean (at first) to lose a bit.

As a rec player, I am playing with 10-times buy-in. When I lose those 10 times due to bad beats for examples, I will deposit more, no big deal. I will not move higher outside my comfort zone.

Thus I think I fulfill the requirements of bankroll management according to that PSO article.



My plan is simply to turn the tide - change "slowly losing" into steady at 0 and then slowly winning. When I win ALL what I lost so far + enough to move up higher in stakes, I will do so. Not until then.
 
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MartyMcFly42

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In other words: I understand that some people have problem of playing too high stakes. I don't, I smallest stakes I can, not succumbing to the aforementioned temptation of "get rich quick".
 
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NorskNewman

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Do you have poker tracker going or Holdem manager?

Bankroll management regiment I subscribe to is 40 buyins for cash games. You will hear some cringing advice from people on online forums saying you need 80-100 buyins. Personally I think that is insanely conservative. But I am a winning player over 130k hands at 2nl. 50 buyins I think is the maximum you should hit before taking a shot at the next level.

I have taken two shots Thus far and failed at 5nl. Also one drunken 10nl shot that set me back $60. In turn I dropped back down to 2nl and have grinded back up. I spend 80% of my time on the tables and 20% watching videos and reading about poker.

I think it's highly beneficial to post your hands for analysis. Mainly ones you've lost, tricky spots. Brags are cool but we don't learn from those quads man! Haha.
Hope this helps
 
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MartyMcFly42

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^ Yeah. these quads are so OverPowered - when they come.

I don't drink, but I like to play on friday/saturday nights to see if I can catch some drunk fishes :) I may be new, but I try to maximalize my chances.

About buy-ins. PokerSchoolOnline gives 10 (for recreational player), others give 20. You give 40 Buy-ins and talk about some saying up to 80-100. I think that 40 buy-ins is OK for the far future when I am ready to move up the stakes.

But I am not ready yet, so it doesn't matter, all I can play is NL2 so that's what I am playing.
 
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MartyMcFly42

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^^ Oh and yeah, I use PokerTracker, tracking over 100.000 hands since January 1st.
 
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NorskNewman

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I'd say post some hands from that 100k and get some feedback as top priority.
 
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MartyMcFly42

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I don't think posting graphs is all that helpful. If you filter your stats by position and post that it might get you some general advice.

I thought this downward red slope VS the nice blue upward one will tell you something I am doing wrong. I heard a lot about "money won without showdown", or iny my case "money lost".

Here's the position one:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/b67b45.jpg


I like stats, they will tell you a lot of things if you have big enough sample. Not saying 1.000.000 wouldn't be better, but better 100k, than 10k.
 
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J_Slice

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I thought this downward red slope VS the nice blue upward one will tell you something I am doing wrong. I heard a lot about "money won without showdown", or iny my case "money lost".

At the micros it's extremely hard to have a positive red line since the most common mistake is not folding enough, at least in my experience. You're going to be making most of your money by exploiting that and getting them to call down with worse hands, or as some say 'fat value'.

Here's the position one:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/b67b45.jpg


I like stats, they will tell you a lot of things if you have big enough sample. Not saying 1.000.000 wouldn't be better, but better 100k, than 10k.
Looking over your stats I see you are raising more or less the same range of hands in every position. You can widen your range as you get closer to the button. One reason you are able to play a wider range is because there will be less and less players to act after you preflop, so it's less likely you will be raised when you're holding a non-premium hand. Another reason, and perhaps the most important, is that you are also more likely to be in position after the flop. Understanding the importance of position is essential. You will be able to see the other players actions before it's your turn and act accordingly.

Say everyone folds to you preflop and you're on the BTN and have something like J9 suited or A5 suited, something you usually wouldn't want to open UTG. If you do open there are only two others left to act (the SB and BB). Lots of times they are just going to fold, which is fine. You get their blinds and you didn't even need to see a flop, very nice. Sometimes you will get called though. Maybe the SB folds and the BB flat calls. Now, since you are in position, you will get to see what his action is first. Say the flop comes Q72 rainbow (no flush draws) and the BB checks. It's unlikely he has much of anything on a dry flop like that so you can pretty safely continuation bet (cbet) as a bluff and get him fold most of the time.

Of course that is just an overly simple example and there are a lot of other factors to consider like player types, stacks sizes, your table image, etc. The point is it is much easier to play hands when you are in position, therefore you can play more of them. You generally want to have a gradual increase in your VPIP/PFR as your position gets later and later. Tightest UTG and widest on the BTN.

I will do a bit of searching for some useful posts that may explain this better. If you don't understand please let me know and I will try to explain it more clear.
 
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Your VPIP and PFR are a little low for 6 max and your fold to Cbet is too high. If people see that on their hud they will cbet you everytime because they know you're a nit. This is something you need to look up and fix.

At 2nl another good thing to learn is 3-betting. Know when to do it and when to call or 4-bet.

I just looked at your link. You need be aware of your position and this will actually tie in with 3-betting.
 
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MartyMcFly42

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Your VPIP and PFR are a little low for 6 max and your fold to Cbet is too high. If people see that on their hud they will cbet you everytime because they know you're a nit. This is something you need to look up and fix.

At 2nl another good thing to learn is 3-betting. Know when to do it and when to call or 4-bet.

I just looked at your link. You need be aware of your position and this will actually tie in with 3-betting.

Just to clarify, I don't play 6-max games, but the 9 players ones on PokerStars.
Not saying you are wrong though.
 
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NorskNewman

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Look up blackrain79 on YouTube and watch the crushing the micros series.
 
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MartyMcFly42

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Look up blackrain79 on YouTube and watch the crushing the micros series.

As I said in post #6 and #11, I have looked his channel up and am slowly getting through his videos. Watching it is one thing, understanding is other.
 
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J_Slice

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I grabbed a screen shot of some FR stats of mine from a long time ago (a few years so things have changed since then) to give you an example of what widening your range in position looks like. It's only over about a month but hopefully it gives you a clearer idea.

http://i.imgur.com/UwMH0WW.png

Now I'm not saying that this is the best way to play, or I am some poker expert, far from it. I don't play much FR anymore and I am in the US so my payer pool is very limited. I'm not sure how the general populations play at FT or PS anymore so take my comments with a grain of salt. I'm not claiming that these stats are perfect in any way, they are not. This is just an example to help explain what I was talking about before.

As you can see I was playing super tight in EP, but as my position got later I started to play more hands. My VPIP and PFR almost tripled by the time we reach the button. My overall VPIP and PFR are only a few percentage points higher than yours, but my VPIP on the button is nearly double. That means I am seeing a lot more flops in position and opponents running a HUD won't know exactly what my range is from there. I'll be able to bluff a lot more boards and take them down when I don't have much of anything, and it will help me get paid off when I have a big hand. It's just much easier to play hands when you are in position so you want to be doing that as much as possible.

Another thing of interest is the RFI stat (Raise First In). You can see that at ~40%. That means that 40% of the time when everyone folds to me on the button preflop I am raising. I do that for various reasons. Obviously when I have premium hands I'm raising, but I'll also do it with much worse hands when table conditions are good. Like if there are nits in the blinds with a high Fold BB to Steal stat. When that is high enough I can raise/steal with almost any two cards since they are folding so often. Or I can raise if they have a high Fold to Flop Cbet stat. If they don't fold preflop I can take it down when they miss and check it to me postflop. Of course when the players in the blinds are more loose and/or aggressive I will do this significantly less since it's much more likely they will play back at me. Recognizing spots like that will help you improve your win-rate and will also help a falling red line (not that that is a huge deal right now imo).

The RWPC (Raise With Previous Callers) is another stat to look at. That is the percentage of times, well, that I'm raising with previous callers. So if a player(s) open limps and I am on the button, I raise about 24% of the time (hopefully isolating the limper). Again, table conditions dictate just how wide I am doing this. I have to make sure there aren't aggressive players in the blinds that may 3bet. I target limpers that have a high Fold to Flop Cbet since I can push them off there hands postflop or are prone to limp folding a lot. Or just all around bad players that I feel I have an edge postflop against.

Please don't take this to the extreme and just start raising anything and everything in late position. That is sure to end horribly, and you will likely blow your bankroll. I would take at look at what your ranges are from EP and chop off the bottom few percent. Add them back in along with some other more marginal hands to your BTN or, to a lesser extent your CO and HJ ranges.

So say you are playing something like 22+, ATs+, ATo+, KQs from EP. You could drop maybe all pocket pairs 55-22, ATo, and ATs from your EP ranges. Keep them in your later position open ranges, but add maybe some suited aces, some higher suited connectors like 98s and T9s, suited broadways. Start slowly and as you get more confidence start to add a bit more. If it starts to get uncomfortable take a few of them out.

(Note that I say opening ranges, so when it gets folded around to you or there are weaker limpers before you. Don't confuse this for me saying to 3bet these hands. That is a whole different subject).

Playing these more marginal hands will mean you need to have a decent idea of some basic postflop strategies. Like which players to target and which to avoid. Or what board textures are more or less likely to connect with different player types. When and why you are betting. Things like that. I can give you some links to helpful articles if you would like. Some are sort of outdated, but they have helped me a lot.

One thing you can do to see how other winning regulars at your stakes are playing is just filter for those players. Pick some people that you have lots of hands on and are winning or breakeven-ish and see how their stats say they are playing. You can also filter for the times they went to showdown and use your hand replayer to see how they are playing various hands. If anything it will help you understand what they are doing and you can come up with a gameplan on how to best play against them.

The way it seems to me now is that anyone with a decent amount of hands against you is going to see you are playing a very static, face up preflop range. When they can be relatively sure what range you're playing preflop they can exploit you to no end. Bluffing you when your range likely missed, trapping you with their monsters when they know they are likely to be ahead, folding to all of your value bets, etc. I'm not sure how many people at 2NL are running HUDs or have tons of hands on you, I'm sure there are more nowadays, but I'm sure there are a decent amount.

All in all I don't think you are playing terrible. You're playing a bit too tight which isn't so bad, much better than playing too loose imo. If you can work on opening up a bit and playing well postflop you should be able to beat the micro stakes.

Again, I'm not claiming to be a great player, I'm not. I have a lot of my own game to work on. But these are things that helped me get better and grind out multiple bankrolls over the years, and I think once you figure them out it will help you too. Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have. I will do my best to explain them. Sorry for the wall of text. I just thought there were some things I could say to help you out. Hopefully they do :)
 
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