Originally Posted by youregoodmate
Your profile says you play live, therefore you should be aware that 6x opens are pretty normal. Against a CO open range KTs is not is bad shape and we have position. Also note that OP described him as a loose bully making KTs even more of a flat.
Yes I play live and yes I know that a 6x raise is standard for bad players, if not on the low side, that's why playing live is so profitable. But I think you're missing my point, just because everyone else at the table plays bad doesn't mean you have to.
So you call 6x with a weakish holding like KTs, what is it that you expect to happen when you miss your flop 2/3 of the time? Are you going to raise him when an ace comes on the flop? Are you going to float his CB when it doesn't? Do you have a plan other than just standing up to a bully? If you're going to call 6x, then why not 8x, 10x, or 12x? My point is that cold calling 3x or bigger with anything less than a trapping hand like TT-AA or AK (maybe AQ) is not profitable and it doesn't matter how bad the player is.
What does matter are effective stack sizes. I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of implied odds
. There's a rule of thumb in NLH called the 10,20,30 rule
where it's considered profitable to call a raise. The exact numbers are source of wide debate (so much so that it is often called the 15, 25, 35 rule) but here's the gist of it. You may profitably call a preflop raise if you stand to make back 10x the bet size with a pair (set mining), 20x with suited connectors, or 30x with a gapper.
KTs isn't even a 1 gapper but just playing along, both you and he would need to be at least 180x deep or in this case $360 just to break even on the call.
Now I know what you're going to say, that you don't need to improve, and I'll admit that KTs is certainly ahead of his range, but that would be the case with any calling hand, right down to deuces. The problem is that he has information that you do not. To you, his range is wide, to him, you're range is narrow. If you put up a fight, he has the choice of giving up or continuing on based on the strength of his hand. You however must call down with very weak holdings like single pairs or even high cards because you're plan was to outplay him, not to out flop him. By calling his raise, he remains in control of the hand.
So what are you're choices? You have three.
1)You can wait for premium hands to fight back with
. I don't like this option as you lose value by having to fold out all those hands decent enough to open raise but not strong enough to call cold. KT suited or otherwise falls into this category.
2)You can change seats (or tables for that matter).
Better, but if you're a good player, why would you want to give up position vs. a looser, weaker player? The answer is, you don't. Which brings us to the third option.
3)You Can Raise!
I never said you shouldn't play KTs, just that you shouldn't call with it. Vs weak players, 3 betting with position is profitable with virtually any 2 cards. This is especially true in live settings. By raising you put him in the position of having to make a real decision based on the strength of his cards, his position, and you're table image; and poor players make poor decisions. He'll call with his entire range, hoping to hit a miracle flop. He'll never take control back unless he has a monster hand and he'll call down with weak made hands. You however have complete control. When he calls your C-Bet you can either take him for three streets of value, fire another barrel, take a free card, control the pot size, whatever you want.
If you want to outplay someone this is how do it, not by cold calling ridiculous raises. Good players know that bet sizing should always serve a purpose, they raise big when they expect, and want, to get called big. Bad players raise big and call big because they don't know any better and because they think "it's normal
Sorry for the long windedness (is that a word?) and for the all caps shout out in my original post. Just trying to make a point.