Am I supposed to fold this?

Thinker_145 · Dec 15, 2013

I am sorry I don't quite know how to explain a hand the way you guys do but anyways here it goes.

I have 44 on a 234 board and it has been a limp 7 handed pot. A friend of mine raises, gets called from someone I know nothing about, then I make a re raise which is followed by a MASSIVE 60 BB re raise from my friend. Now I know my friend enough that there is no chance in hell he would ever try to bluff there and I also feel if he had an over pair he might initially raise but then just call after my big re raise. I really feel he has flopped a straight there after he put almost all his 100 BB stack in because he just isn't the sort of player who would do that without a REALLY big hand.

Then that player I know nothing about calls the massive raise rather quickly. Now even if I know my friend has a straight I am supposed to call here right? Because if I hit a full house I'll be getting massively payed off. But if the other player has 33 or 22 then I have 3 less outs to make the winning hand. When 2 players flop a set its a lot less likely for the board to pair. So I dunno if my call is mathematically the right thing to do?

Btw I started the hand with around 200 BB and was comfortably ahead of the other 2 players in the pot who were both at around 100 BB.

As it turns out my friend had 56 and the other guy had 22. The board didn't pair and I lost a massive hand. So did I do something wrong here you feel? Perhaps it shouldn't have been a limp pot then the 56o was going to fold and I would get payed off from the 22. But hitting a set by limping in with a small pair has worked for me a lot of times. It is also entirely possible he would have called a 3-4x pre-flop raise with 56o since pre-flop he is a very loose player.

Oh and what happens if the other guy folds after the 60 BB raise? Should I also fold then since I know my friend so well? Or are we never supposed to fold top set on the flop in a cash game? I had myself put in like 25 BB into the pot before I was facing the really big raise and realized I could be behind.

LD1977 · Dec 15, 2013

Use PokerStove to figure it all out.

This is a recent thread that might be useful: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/looking-pokerstove-236414/

Beanfacekilla · Dec 15, 2013

Considering the situation, and the pot odds you vaguely described, call was probably OK.

The info you provided is vague though.

Also, I am not the best at hand analysis, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I would like another opinion.

RNG · Dec 15, 2013

I might just shove there and hope to get lucky if you friend has the nuts. If I have 33 or 22, I would fold.

Thinker_145 · Dec 15, 2013

RNG said:
I might just shove there and hope to get lucky if you friend has the nuts. If I have 33 or 22, I would fold.

Ya if I had 33 or 22 and 2 people have practically gone all in behind me then you could make a good argument for a fold although it still isn't easy.

cotta777 · Dec 15, 2013

Since it was 7 handed thats 14 cards in play someone is very likely to be drawing, horrible board for a set.

Its worth seeing the turn but if an ace comes or a 5. and you still have 2 or 3 callers its a definate fold there facing a big bet.

On the flop You prob want to get to the turn since your getting so much value from your sets even if you lost that hand if you recorded 1000 sets you would win more than you lose so its still not a huge leak to be playing the set even if in that particular hand you might not be a favourate

RickH1983 · Dec 15, 2013

You have good pot odds in that case. If someone re-raises you and another player calls the re-raise I would say it is safe to assume you are beat. On a good note you have outs and the turn gives you more outs if it doesn't pair the board. However its not good to try to draw against a made hand.

In your situation I would fold because it is not a raised pot. Someone is more than likely to have hit a straight with a bet like that (A5 or 56). It is likely that someone could have a small over pair but I think it is unlikely to bet that much with say sixes or sevens due to the fact that someone else could have a straight.

topper39 · Dec 15, 2013

If you're sure your friend have you beated with straight, you have 7outs to outdraw him. That about 28%. It's clearly the fold in that case. But then there is the other guy calling. He increases the pot to make your odds way better. You didn't give out much informations, but still if you consider his range, I think it's most likely 22,33 and A5. I can't imagine any other hand he would quickly call with into this action. So you quite often end up having 5outs, 20%. Now there is 300BB pot. You didn't said how much was your raise, but I expect it could be like 15BB in this spot. so you have to call 85BB into 300BB pot. Thats about 3,5:1 (28%), your equity is 20% in worst case, so it's fold mathematically. But if the other guy didn't have a set, you get exactly the odds you need. What's more, your friend didn't necessarilly had to hold a straight. It could be cool set vs.set vs. set setup for you or something. So I would call after all.

RickH1983 · Dec 15, 2013

topper39 said:
If you're sure your friend have you beated with straight, you have 7outs to outdraw him. That about 28%. It's clearly the fold in that case. But then there is the other guy calling. He increases the pot to make your odds way better. You didn't give out much informations, but still if you consider his range, I think it's most likely 22,33 and A5. I can't imagine any other hand he would quickly call with into this action. So you quite often end up having 5outs, 20%. Now there is 300BB pot. You didn't said how much was your raise, but I expect it could be like 15BB in this spot. so you have to call 85BB into 300BB pot. Thats about 3,5:1 (28%), your equity is 20% in worst case, so it's fold mathematically. But if the other guy didn't have a set, you get exactly the odds you need. What's more, your friend didn't necessarilly had to hold a straight. It could be cool set vs.set vs. set setup for you or something. So I would call after all.

He doesnt have seven outs because the guy that called behind had a set of 2's. He only has 4 outs the last 4 in the deck and 4 3's. If the two pairs the board he only has one out.

Beanfacekilla · Dec 15, 2013

RickH1983 said:
He doesnt have seven outs because the guy that called behind had a set of 2's. He only has 4 outs the last 4 in the deck and 4 3's. If the two pairs the board he only has one out.

Are you serious man? This is extremely results oriented... how can hero know that one of the villains holds exactly 2-2 during the hand?

RickH1983 · Dec 15, 2013

Beanfacekilla said:
Are you serious man? This is extremely results oriented... how can hero know that one of the villains holds exactly 2-2 during the hand?

If you play enough poker and you get three callers you can assume that he might also have a set. So take your pick 22 or 33. When you think that way you will be better off in the long run. You need to think about every aspect of the game.

rock0001 · Dec 15, 2013

your hand is really strong because not only you hit a set, but also the highest one.
If i was in your place i guess i would just called, because there are lots of chances for both players to have aces, kings or even a small set ( 22,33). and even if your losing to a staight you still have the chance of hitting a full house.
You just had a terrible cooler there.

micalupagoo · Dec 15, 2013

7 ppl limping is ridiculous,
and if you don't flop the nut,
and there is raises and reraises (a huge one at that) from someone you know that only plays great hands, A5 or 56 is all Im thinking (tho 22/33 is what you hope)
its a lot of BBs to pay with that board and that many players who got to see the flop, its just cost me enough in the past I guess

Beanfacekilla · Dec 15, 2013

RickH1983 said:
If you play enough poker and you get three callers you can assume that he might also have a set. So take your pick 22 or 33. When you think that way you will be better off in the long run. You need to think about every aspect of the game.

Results oriented.

If you play enough poker, you will realize your opponent has a range of hands, not 2 hands only on a flop like this....

Range for a flat call in this spot could easily be over pairs (because people are bad at poker a lot and make questionable calls), Combo hands like 2-5, 3-5, 4-5, 2-3. Less likely hands that contain a 4, but not impossible.

Not to mention OP didn't mention if board had a FD, so that could also be a factor. If there was indeed a FD, this could open up tons of ranges.

And also OP did not specify the pot odds.

Action was: his friend opened and got a call. Then OP raised (we don't know how much), then OP was reraised, and other villain calls.

So if OP raised to 20 BBs for example, then his friend raised to 60 BBs, and that got called pot would have something like 147 BBs.

So now OP is faced with calling 40 BBs to go after 147 dead money in pot, more than 3.5-1 pot odds.

It is not a snap call, but he still has 2 cards to come yet.

And furthermore, the entire hand analysis is flawed from the beginning. OP revealed the results. IMO this makes your opinion biased (confirmed by you stating villain has 2-2 exactly).

So just with the 2-3-4 board flat caller could have a pretty big range of draws. And for all we know, the villain who reraised after OP could have tried to limp/slow play AA preflop. People do silly things all the time in poker.

Considering they are going to the flop in a 7way limped pot, it is clear none of these people knows how to play poker. They are all just playing bingo, and no one is isolating or playing solid preflop.

So if you didn't know what both villains held, your opinion may have been different.

I have seen people make rediculous flat calls like that with gutter balls or OESD live, for $200 in real money. Draw heavy boards like this generate tons of action if any one of these limpers caught a whiff of that board.

RickH1983 · Dec 15, 2013

Beanfacekilla said:
Results oriented.

If you play enough poker, you will realize your opponent has a range of hands, not 2 hands only on a flop like this....

Range for a flat call in this spot could easily be over pairs (because people are bad at poker a lot and make questionable calls), Combo hands like 2-5, 3-5, 4-5, 2-3. Less likely hands that contain a 4, but not impossible.

Not to mention OP didn't mention if board had a FD, so that could also be a factor. If there was indeed a FD, this could open up tons of ranges.

And also OP did not specify the pot odds.

Action was: his friend opened and got a call. Then OP raised (we don't know how much), then OP was reraised, and other villain calls.

So if OP raised to 20 BBs for example, then his friend raised to 60 BBs, and that got called pot would have something like 147 BBs.

So now OP is faced with calling 40 BBs to go after 147 dead money in pot, more than 3.5-1 pot odds.

It is not a snap call, but he still has 2 cards to come yet.

And furthermore, the entire hand analysis is flawed from the beginning. OP revealed the results. IMO this makes your opinion biased (confirmed by you stating villain has 2-2 exactly).

So just with the 2-3-4 board flat caller could have a pretty big range of draws. And for all we know, the villain who reraised after OP could have tried to limp/slow play AA preflop. People do silly things all the time in poker.

Considering they are going to the flop in a 7way limped pot, it is clear none of these people knows how to play poker. They are all just playing bingo, and no one is isolating or playing solid preflop.

So if you didn't know what both villains held, your opinion may have been different.

I have seen people make rediculous flat calls like that with gutter balls or OESD live, for $200 in real money. Draw heavy boards like this generate tons of action if any one of these limpers caught a whiff of that board.

I understand what you are saying completely. I am trying to educate this lad about the possibilities instead of telling him he has seven outs and that his hand is gravy if the board pairs. I would rather try to help the guy learn a lesson before he stacks off like I am sure I did in my learning process. I understand that people do dumb things I have been playing poker for over 10 years live and online. I am just trying to inform the inexperienced OP that you need to think about all of the possibilities before you make a decision.

Beanfacekilla · Dec 15, 2013

RickH1983 said:
I understand what you are saying completely. I am trying to educate this lad about the possibilities instead of telling him he has seven outs and that his hand is gravy if the board pairs. I would rather try to help the guy learn a lesson before he stacks off like I am sure I did in my learning process. I understand that people do dumb things I have been playing poker for over 10 years live and online. I am just trying to inform the inexperienced OP that you need to think about all of the possibilities before you make a decision.

Fair enough.

I was trying to be argumentative or anything.

I was we merely debating the issue.

Mr Sandbag · Dec 15, 2013

The whole HH was a bit vague and we know nothing about the players involved or the actual size of the pot.

If your friend is a nit and would only put his stack in with the nuts, I could probably fold a set here (unless pot odds dictated otherwise). But if he is more on the loose-aggressive side, he's got a ton of worse hands in his range. I wouldn't worry much about the guy who flatted.

jj20002 · Dec 15, 2013

right aproach wrong outcome

Thinker_145 said:
I am sorry I don't quite know how to explain a hand the way you guys do but anyways here it goes.

I have 44 on a 234 board and it has been a limp 7 handed pot. A friend of mine raises, gets called from someone I know nothing about, then I make a re raise which is followed by a MASSIVE 60 BB re raise from my friend. Now I know my friend enough that there is no chance in hell he would ever try to bluff there and I also feel if he had an over pair he might initially raise but then just call after my big re raise. I really feel he has flopped a straight there after he put almost all his 100 BB stack in because he just isn't the sort of player who would do that without a REALLY big hand.

Then that player I know nothing about calls the massive raise rather quickly. Now even if I know my friend has a straight I am supposed to call here right? Because if I hit a full house I'll be getting massively payed off. But if the other player has 33 or 22 then I have 3 less outs to make the winning hand. When 2 players flop a set its a lot less likely for the board to pair. So I dunno if my call is mathematically the right thing to do?

Btw I started the hand with around 200 BB and was comfortably ahead of the other 2 players in the pot who were both at around 100 BB.

As it turns out my friend had 56 and the other guy had 22. The board didn't pair and I lost a massive hand. So did I do something wrong here you feel? Perhaps it shouldn't have been a limp pot then the 56o was going to fold and I would get payed off from the 22. But hitting a set by limping in with a small pair has worked for me a lot of times. It is also entirely possible he would have called a 3-4x pre-flop raise with 56o since pre-flop he is a very loose player.

Oh and what happens if the other guy folds after the 60 BB raise? Should I also fold then since I know my friend so well? Or are we never supposed to fold top set on the flop in a cash game? I had myself put in like 25 BB into the pot before I was facing the really big raise and realized I could be behind.

if you see the range of your friend, and because no raise preflop, he could have:

losers (30):
22 (3), 33 (3)
55 (6), 66 (6), 77 (6), 88 (6) (other pairs i think he should raise)

winners (32):
A-5 (16), 56 (16)

now, don´t know your friend´s game but the way he bet (reraise) it´s probably he was winning because against so many limpers he could suspect somebody has a set, so why risk all his stack with something less than the higher set (which you had it so he couldn´t) so in that case it was more likely that he has a straight, but again it was a tough call

problem i think (it happens to me) when one is looking for a hand (set, flush or straight or full) and one gets it then is hard to believe (as opposed to the math which say otherwise) that somebody is winning us,

maybe because one has fold in the past against a bluffer having the best hand
and one thinks, what? not again, so let me see what you have ok, here i am, and one finishes paying despite one is almost sure to be behind

Thinker_145 · Dec 16, 2013

topper39 said:
If you're sure your friend have you beated with straight, you have 7outs to outdraw him. That about 28%. It's clearly the fold in that case. But then there is the other guy calling. He increases the pot to make your odds way better. You didn't give out much informations, but still if you consider his range, I think it's most likely 22,33 and A5. I can't imagine any other hand he would quickly call with into this action. So you quite often end up having 5outs, 20%. Now there is 300BB pot. You didn't said how much was your raise, but I expect it could be like 15BB in this spot. so you have to call 85BB into 300BB pot. Thats about 3,5:1 (28%), your equity is 20% in worst case, so it's fold mathematically. But if the other guy didn't have a set, you get exactly the odds you need. What's more, your friend didn't necessarilly had to hold a straight. It could be cool set vs.set vs. set setup for you or something. So I would call after all.

My friend raised 5 BB, the other guy called it. Then I re raised 25 BB so I had 26 BB committed before I realized what I could be up against. I didn't want a hand with a lone 5 staying in cheaply and another reason why I raised that much is because my friend is generally unable to fold half decent hands so I was going to get max value out of him.

Oh and another info I forgot to give in this thread is that there was no flush draw on the flop.

topper39 · Dec 16, 2013

Thinker_145 said:
My friend raised 5 BB, the other guy called it. Then I re raised 25 BB so I had 26 BB committed before I realized what I could be up against. I didn't want a hand with a lone 5 staying in cheaply and another reason why I raised that much is because my friend is generally unable to fold half decent hands so I was going to get max value out of him.

Oh and another info I forgot to give in this thread is that there was no flush draw on the flop.

I see. So with that big raise you get even better odds than I mentined above. You should definitely call then regardless on other guys hands imo. In this spot, you will mostly have the odds to make a call even if you know you're behind and you need to improve. Another argument is that you said your friend is unable to fold half decent hands. So he really doesn't had to have the nuts everytime then..

Thinker_145 · Dec 16, 2013

topper39 said:
I see. So with that big raise you get even better odds than I mentined above. You should definitely call then regardless on other guys hands imo. In this spot, you will mostly have the odds to make a call even if you know you're behind and you need to improve. Another argument is that you said your friend is unable to fold half decent hands. So he really doesn't had to have the nuts everytime then..

Yes if he calls me then I am not really worried but he wouldn't re-raise with a half decent hand.

topper39 · Dec 17, 2013

Thinker_145 said:
Yes if he calls me then I am not really worried but he wouldn't re-raise with a half decent hand.

Okey, but it still doesn't change things much. Your call was right anyway imo.

Am I supposed to fold this?

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