Always set mine with PP?

I have been getting drained a lot lately trying to set mine any time I have a pocket pair and there isnt too big a raise preflop. As per odds I havent hit many and it seems everyone is playing great cause I havent been able to pick up many pots when I dont hit. What is your take on this let me know how often you mine and what are your limits and ideas on postflop mine failure.

And as I write this I set mine with JJ after getting reraised preflop and just win a $150 pot in 50nl

Try to setmine in position, and especially against players that have exploitable weaknesses (such as being easily induced postflop, or folding too much on a given street). Also if you're gonna setmine do it REAAAAAAALLY ****ing cheap. You have to account for coolers, PF 3bets, and actual realized equity when you hit, etc.

Aleksei said:

Try to setmine in position, and especially against players that have exploitable weaknesses (such as being easily induced postflop, or folding too much on a given street). Also if you're gonna setmine do it REAAAAAAALLY ****ing cheap. You have to account for coolers, PF 3bets, and actual realized equity when you hit, etc.

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These truths I know but I'm so bad when I set fail and then try to play post flop and continually make the wrong play. I need some new lines and maybe study up more on postflop play in raised pots.

I believe I read that u should only be willing to put in 1/20 of ur stack pre with plans to set mine. For example. I have 44 and 5000 chips. I can only get involved if I can do so for 250 chips as it is 1/20th of my stack

Jblocher1 said:

I believe I read that u should only be willing to put in 1/20 of ur stack pre with plans to set mine.

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ESS is more important. If you have 180BB but your villain just has 60 you shouldn't put effing 9BB in to setmine.

Depend on the strength of the pocket pair doesn't it? Call 2% of the smallest stack (yours or theirs) for 22, 3% for 33 etc. up to about 8-10% for 99-JJ. Of course you need to modify this for position and the players at you tables.

atownshend said:

Depend on the strength of the pocket pair doesn't it? Call 2% of the smallest stack (yours or theirs) for 22, 3% for 33 etc. up to about 8-10% for 99-JJ. Of course you need to modify this for position and the players at you tables.

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This is just so ridiculously dependent on dynamics it's almost unanswerable. But generally speaking, in a loose dynamic you can usually play JJ/TT like QQ (just keep in mind that you'll flop an overcard the majority of the time -- be VERY careful with how light you can bet or call). In tight dynamics though treat any PP lower than QQ as low-value.

Aleksei said:

ESS is more important. If you have 180BB but your villain just has 60 you shouldn't put effing 9BB in to setmine.

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Yeah I suppose that makes sense. I read that a long time ago on the forum... My b.

Its not often you are dealt a pair, only about 6%. Therefore, most raises are not pocket pairs. An unpaired hand only flops a pair roughly 1 in 3.

So by flat calling and getting away from the hand due to an obvious c-bet on the flop is throwing equity away. Since you are most likely ahead 2 out of 3 times.

Really..... something to think about heads up

Are you raising PF? If you raise PF with them, they can easily become a strong A post flop when you miss.

JusSayin

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Bottom line answer - no. It's okay to fold weak pairs. Don't feel obligated.

It s okay to fold weak pairs, especially in early position.

I have also regretted it a number of times, lol... One time in a live game I flopped the set and turned quads after folding my early position 4's pre-flop. I wasn't amused.

As I wrote this I limped UTG with pocket 3s, on the first hand of a 6-max double up tourney. I can tell this is a tight table because it folded around to the Bb who checked.

He bet into me twice flop/turn then checked the river. He was betting a gut shot. I won with my pair of threes. No mine, no pot building, I let him do a little work and took down a small pot to get things rolling.
So I guess it really depends!

play in position, and choose the opponents you set mine vs ie if the guys super aggro and will barrel, no value in low pp as your not gonna call 3 streets with an underpair.

atownshend said:

Depend on the strength of the pocket pair doesn't it? Call 2% of the smallest stack (yours or theirs) for 22, 3% for 33 etc. up to about 8-10% for 99-JJ. Of course you need to modify this for position and the players at you tables.

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I have no idea how you came up with this? But the above is full of wrong.

Once we make the decision to set mine preflop, then set mining is set mining. Doesn't matter if we have 22, 55, or even QQ. If you firmly believe that V's range is AA/KK and decide to "set mine" then you need to hit your set and a set is a set is a set...

The biggest factors in whether we should set mine are:

#1) Range we assign villain
#2) Villain's post flop tendencies
#3) Villain's post flop aggression
#4) Effective stacks (ours and villains, we need to be getting 15:1 to 20:1 implied odds)

The greater V"s range tends towards AA/KK/AK, the greater V's tendency to overbet and overvalue TPTK and/or overpairs, then the more profitable set mining becomes

Mathematically we need a minimum of 8:1 odds to set mine since we will hit a set roughly 12% of the time. However, as a community the thinking has shifted required odds to 11:1 to 15:1 to 20:1 over the years because it takes into account the times we hit our set and DON'T get paid off.

As far as position goes, obviously set mining in position is better than being out of position, however set mining works from any position as long as you are somewhat confident you won't get 3-bet out of a pot pre. For the most part, you will be able to limp/call to set mine provided you are 100bb+ deep.

Lastly, ideal set mining conditions are multi-way pots in which you are getting great direct odds to call on top of implied odds (eff stacks behind) and your villains are aggro post flop and will stack off with TPGK+ type hands. So you hit your set, they pay you off.

Non-ideal set mining conditions are when pots are NOT multi-way and you are up against a villain who raises with a wide range and has a good post flop game and isn't going to overvalue his hands or make incorrect aggro spewtarded overbets... Basically, against these types of villains, you hit your set, they don't pay you off enough to overcome all the times you miss your set and have to fold.

atownshend said:

Depend on the strength of the pocket pair doesn't it? Call 2% of the smallest stack (yours or theirs) for 22, 3% for 33 etc. up to about 8-10% for 99-JJ. Of course you need to modify this for position and the players at you tables.

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Very cute - who taught you this? Take them out and flog them.

In a loose passive game with sufficient stack sizes I will set mine all day, if somone puts in a small raise - even better. In a tight aggressive game with deep enough stacks I will still play my low pp if either I am the opener in any position (raise!), there is already at least one caller or a raise and a caller, or if I am in late position vs someone I think I can out play post flop. In position there are more opportunities to earn the pot than hitting a set.

I try to setmine,in pos,getting 15/1 odds and when i have a read my opponent will pay me off if i do hit my set.

I set mine to a single raise 3x bb with any pp over 4s IP, none below 7s OOP, if theres a caller any pp in or out of position, but then tread carefully with the small pps OOP 3 way

When set mining you should be folding after the flop if you don't hit your set. If you think there is room for bluffing then it isn't really set-mining, but more just playing your hand.

When playing pocket pairs that are low in general, they are often bluff catcher hands. If a flop comes K72 and you hold 44 and are bet into, you have to evaluate his range and what he does with that range in all possible situations. Sometimes folding will be best, sometimes calling, sometimes raising.

In the K72 example I believe the best play readless is to just call.

Here is a cute little rule you can apply to your play for simplification:
Look at the amount you have to call. Multiply that number by 15 and if it is greater than the smallest stack between you and your opponent you can call.

Later on it will become more intuitive and you can focus on other things like if there are opponents behind you. Consider the likelihood they will raise. The more likely they raise, the more likely you should fold. The more likely they call/fold, the more likely you should call. The more people in the pot. The more likely you should call. Also the bigger the pair the more likely you should call as well. The strength of the pair isn't as important as some of the other factors, but definitely plays a role.

I would say you are making a fundamental mistake not raising with 99 10 10 JJ in middle to late position -obv you are raising QQ KK AA any positions (I hope) - Part of the reason you would have trouble post flop is you can't represent an ace or king too well if you just call pre flop. I don't have a problem set mining 88 and worse pocket pairs but I hate to give up value on a great hand like pocket 10s or jacks by not getting more money in the pot. Calling like 30 pct of the time pre flop is fine but the rest of the time you should be raising these hands esp in position - also when you hit a set and bet it on like a 10 6 3 board it will look like a continuation bet if you have raised pre flop but will appear stronger if you just called preflop.

It depends on your stack if you should set mine or not. It is not smart to setmine with lets say 16bbs. Also don't make the price to expensive to set mine. If you have enough bbs it is probably profitable. If you hit the flop you will easily stack off hands like aces.

Also lets say early position opens, and you are in early position also and have very aggresive players left of you who like squezing/3betting/re-raising a lot, you might want to fold depending on ur stack. But......... please note it is also improtant which pocket pair you have, there is a lot of situations where you fold 2's but raise 9's for example. And with premium pocket pair you're not only setmining, your hand might be good enough without a set.

Its really difficult to play a pp postflop when you don't hit, my advice is to give the hand as lost, unless you get a straight draw or when there are 3 low cards and you are pretty sure your opponent has not hit. Also try to setmine as cheap as tou can and against exploitable players