Allergic to money?

Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

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I've noticed a trend lately among $1/$2 NL live players. They're becoming increasingly more passive pre and post flop. I was a regular player up until about a year ago when I stopped playing completely due to other things going on in my life. When I started up again earlier this year, it was like an entirely different game. Both the weak and average players are no longer betting flops, even with two pair. They're simply content with calling down to the river with what is most likely the winning hand. It's like they are allergic to money and want to minimize what they make when they have a good hand. Furthermore, it's becoming increasingly more common for players to NOT RAISE preflop with any premium hand...ever. When somebody raises, they don't even reraise but call. It's like a slowplay that never comes to fruition.

Does anyone else experience this? I've been having trouble adjusting my style to this sort of behavior. I am unable to bet anyone off a hand, but since they are playing almost every hand the same way, I can't tell if they're on a draw or have two pair!

Any thoughts or tips?
 
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DunningKruger

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Players at 1/2 live generally call rather light and raise rather tight. It's not exactly new. It's almost as if since post flop raises and preflop 3bets get a lot of folds they don't want to scare anyone off or w/e. Anyway no one's ever accused these players of being the sharpest crayons in the box, and playing not unlike a an online uNL ring game where bet/fold is your best friend should work pretty well. Yeah they'll often have wide ranges when they call a bet (such is the nature of no-foldem holdem) but the law of averages will come into play and you won't always see the top of their range or anything. It gets a bit tricky in that a lot of live players can't resist slow playing (to the point where they're pretty much full of **** if they're getting aggressive heh), but again, law of averages, position (always important in NLHE), profiling players accurately, blah blah and 1/2 live is still pretty lol easy these days. Not quite as easy as it used to be... but still.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

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To take this thread one step further, why do people make such a huge preflop bets? It's a $1/$2 game, but people are opening for $17 up to $25. What is the point of this? I mean, generally if 8 people have called and someone bumps it to $7, everyone will be calling even with trash, but a bet like $17 or $25 is like proclaiming "I have a good hand but don't want to see a flop or get anymore value from it." It's such a weird mixture of disrespect for bets <$10 preflop and and unwillingness to maximize profit from good hands postflop.
 
_FISHFEET81_

_FISHFEET81_

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Ive noticed some dumb things on the 1/2 tabled recently at the casino I attend. Just some real big bets 20 bucks with no bet prior to it. Sometimes ill call with trash just to make the guy sweat and if I don't flop a two paid or set or something to make me a made hand or a big draw ill just lay it down. But I agree its like they don't want anymore money then when they get called their butts probably tighten up cause they have no idea what to do after the flop comes. But I love idiots like that great way to make a few hundread bucks real quick at the table in my opinion.
 
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To take this thread one step further, why do people make such a huge preflop bets? It's a $1/$2 game, but people are opening for $17 up to $25. What is the point of this? I mean, generally if 8 people have called and someone bumps it to $7, everyone will be calling even with trash, but a bet like $17 or $25 is like proclaiming "I have a good hand but don't want to see a flop or get anymore value from it." It's such a weird mixture of disrespect for bets <$10 preflop and and unwillingness to maximize profit from good hands postflop.
Because otherwise you get too many callers?

Isn't the obvious reason that some hands we raise don't play well multiway? To get speculative and small pp type hands to fold. Very annoying to lose with overpair vs small twopair just because you didn't raise enough preflop to fold them out.

About the sizing, I find there is a balance at each game, for instance in one game you might get all 8 limpers calling your button raise of 10BB, and the next time you try 15BB and only 3-4 call. At 17BB you may get just one caller, which may or may not be the perfect raise size (if a heads-up pot is the goal with that specific move). There is a "perfect" raise in every game, to make sure you don't get too many players with you on the flop.
 
n3rv

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I lost a few buy-ins to someone I assumed was bluffing simply because the rest of the table was so passive and they were putting in ridiculous raises and winning every time. In the heat of the moment I thought they had to be a bot, but looking back - even if they were a bot - I loosened up too much just to be in a hand. But yeah, I feel in general people would rather win a small pot these days and it is strange when that doesn't happen.
 
Aces2w1n

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I've been on some really good 1/2 live tables... Well where 3/4 of the table is playing ABC poker.

If you are finding your at a weak table, great stay there and enjoy the fact that they still exist... I am finding in Crown melb that the tables are getting harder unless ofc theres big tourneys about... Tourney players will tend to hop on the cash inbetween or off time to make up their losses. And we know what chasing our losses leads to me! ... That's right money in our grinders pocket :)
 
Mr Sandbag

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Because otherwise you get too many callers?

Isn't the obvious reason that some hands we raise don't play well multiway? To get speculative and small pp type hands to fold. Very annoying to lose with overpair vs small twopair just because you didn't raise enough preflop to fold them out.

About the sizing, I find there is a balance at each game, for instance in one game you might get all 8 limpers calling your button raise of 10BB, and the next time you try 15BB and only 3-4 call. At 17BB you may get just one caller, which may or may not be the perfect raise size (if a heads-up pot is the goal with that specific move). There is a "perfect" raise in every game, to make sure you don't get too many players with you on the flop.

It's also annoying to have the entire table fold to every premium hand you have because you decided $22 was a good preflop bet at $1/$2. The max buy-in is $200 - why the hell would anyone want to raise preflop for 10% or more of the buy-in? It's even funnier when somebody who only buys in for $100 raises pre to $25, gets three callers, and is basically pot committed before the flop.

I see so many guys snap call $15 raises preflop with speculative and even trash hands because they already had the $2 in there. Wouldn't it be smarter to raise LESS and not more? If I know I'm getting calls anyway unless my bet is upwards of $30, I'd rather raise to $5-$6, build a sizeable pot with few of my own chips committed, and lay down the hand to significant action. If I flop a big hand, I'm almost surely getting paid off because of the pot size and the number of opponents in it.
 
OldschoolSteinhausen

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I've noticed a trend lately among $1/$2 NL live players. They're becoming increasingly more passive pre and post flop. I was a regular player up until about a year ago when I stopped playing completely due to other things going on in my life. When I started up again earlier this year, it was like an entirely different game. Both the weak and average players are no longer betting flops, even with two pair. They're simply content with calling down to the river with what is most likely the winning hand. It's like they are allergic to money and want to minimize what they make when they have a good hand. Furthermore, it's becoming increasingly more common for players to NOT RAISE preflop with any premium hand...ever. When somebody raises, they don't even reraise but call. It's like a slowplay that never comes to fruition.

Does anyone else experience this? I've been having trouble adjusting my style to this sort of behavior. I am unable to bet anyone off a hand, but since they are playing almost every hand the same way, I can't tell if they're on a draw or have two pair!

Any thoughts or tips?

From what I am hearing, it sounds like you are having trouble to adjusting your passive live players.

My tips would be:

1. If you cant get people off of mediocre hands (lets say tpbk) Then the first thing would be to NEVER fire a river barrel, unless of course you know they have alot of mid and small pairs that they'll call turn barrel with.

2. If they are slowplaying, unfortunately that does naturally balance their range a bit, there's nothing specifically you can do about that, however it does open up some options...read below.

For instance, you can do something like....Say the player is passive and he slowplays alot, but since he is passive, he also wont bluff much. A good trick to use vs such a player is this. Bet flop, then chk the turn....you see when you check the turn you give him an opportunity to bet, if he takes it, you can strongly consider folding any mediocre hands yourself. IF/WHEN he checks, you have ALOT of information about the nature of his hand, and you can play rivers almost perfectly vs him.

The above is how I would play alot of my "in between" type of hands, like mid pair and bottom pair, weak draws, etc.

In essence, they player opens up alot of "small ball" ways to exploit him, instead of "big ball" (lol) plays, such as big bluffs
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

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From what I am hearing, it sounds like you are having trouble to adjusting your passive live players.

My tips would be:

1. If you cant get people off of mediocre hands (lets say tpbk) Then the first thing would be to NEVER fire a river barrel, unless of course you know they have alot of mid and small pairs that they'll call turn barrel with.

2. If they are slowplaying, unfortunately that does naturally balance their range a bit, there's nothing specifically you can do about that, however it does open up some options...read below.

For instance, you can do something like....Say the player is passive and he slowplays alot, but since he is passive, he also wont bluff much. A good trick to use vs such a player is this. Bet flop, then chk the turn....you see when you check the turn you give him an opportunity to bet, if he takes it, you can strongly consider folding any mediocre hands yourself. IF/WHEN he checks, you have ALOT of information about the nature of his hand, and you can play rivers almost perfectly vs him.

The above is how I would play alot of my "in between" type of hands, like mid pair and bottom pair, weak draws, etc.

In essence, they player opens up alot of "small ball" ways to exploit him, instead of "big ball" (lol) plays, such as big bluffs

I like this advice, but this strategy would have to only be used against the weaker players at the table. Strong players will recognize this pattern of betting and will be more inclined to call your flop bet with nothing and the intention of stealing the pot after a check on the turn.
 
OldschoolSteinhausen

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I like this advice, but this strategy would have to only be used against the weaker players at the table. Strong players will recognize this pattern of betting and will be more inclined to call your flop bet with nothing and the intention of stealing the pot after a check on the turn.

I agree, and when they do that there is another adjustment to make. Id start giving up earlier with hands that I didnt intend to double barrel with. But also, taking some TPTK hands, betting them on flop and then trapping them on the turn by checking.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

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I agree, and when they do that there is another adjustment to make. Id start giving up earlier with hands that I didnt intend to double barrel with. But also, taking some TPTK hands, betting them on flop and then trapping them on the turn by checking.

Yep. This also goes hand-in-hand with a strategy that I think works quite well in $1/$2 live games: small pots for small hands and big pots for big hands.
 
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its quite a good tactic actually i've used safeguarding my hands to minimise the swings and variance it also helps to keep me calm and collected, also it makes alot of players suspicious of your game if your min raising pre flop and snap calling free bets, they cant put you on a range and its a good disguise for strong hands, and I find agressive players cant exploit me with monster free bets,
as you cant really freebet more than $3.50 to a $1.00 min raise
I still free bet pre with a top 5% hand or the equivelent to as many times in a session

sure you lose value if you get a monster (if) but in reality thats just gamblers instinct and if you suffer from tilt those big pots you lose with the better hand pre/&flop will later cost you more chips anyway, so it can in theory cost you too break even or worse, depending how you handle losing a large percentage of your stack.

if you open raise 3 x and your getting re raised alot then people want to fight for the pot and it becomes a big risk unless you have a deep bankroll...

but I do think safeguarding your play and controlling the pot size allows you to play higher stakes with a smaller roll and have a steady progression over a longer period of time
 
OldschoolSteinhausen

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its quite a good tactic actually i've used safeguarding my hands to minimise the swings and variance it also helps to keep me calm and collected, also it makes alot of players suspicious of your game if your min raising pre flop and snap calling free bets, they cant put you on a range and its a good disguise for strong hands, and I find agressive players cant exploit me with monster free bets,
as you cant really freebet more than $3.50 to a $1.00 min raise
I still free bet pre with a top 5% hand or the equivelent to as many times in a session

sure you lose value if you get a monster (if) but in reality thats just gamblers instinct and if you suffer from tilt those big pots you lose with the better hand pre/&flop will later cost you more chips anyway, so it can in theory cost you too break even or worse, depending how you handle losing a large percentage of your stack.

if you open raise 3 x and your getting re raised alot then people want to fight for the pot and it becomes a big risk unless you have a deep bankroll...

but I do think safeguarding your play and controlling the pot size allows you to play higher stakes with a smaller roll and have a steady progression over a longer period of time

Hi Cotta!

Where are you usually playing these days?
 
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DunningKruger

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It's also annoying to have the entire table fold to every premium hand you have because you decided $22 was a good preflop bet at $1/$2. The max buy-in is $200 - why the hell would anyone want to raise preflop for 10% or more of the buy-in?

Just depends on what the players at the table have a habit of calling. If $22 never or very rarely gets any calls then making it $22 isn't a very good idea, but if you make it $22 with a hand like AA and get 2 or 3 callers, then that's much better than making it like $10 and getting 4 or 5 callers.

It's even funnier when somebody who only buys in for $100 raises pre to $25, gets three callers, and is basically pot committed before the flop.

If it's a premium hand like AA or KK, that's a pretty awesome result to have. Anytime you have the nuts or near nuts, generally the more you can get other people to put into the pot the better. You really can't make this into a strategy against good competition ofc but against the window lickers I suspect you're talking about, you don't need to be too concerned about balance. The truly funny thing about what you said there is that the guy who made it $25 bucks hasn't played a hand in almost 2 hours and still gets 3 or 4 calls after making a large pre flop raise with his aces.

I see so many guys snap call $15 raises preflop with speculative and even trash hands because they already had the $2 in there. Wouldn't it be smarter to raise LESS and not more?

No, it'd be the opposite really. What you're suggesting does result in smaller variance, but you're leaving money on the table. When your competition is bad enough to try and play trashy hands almost regardless of the amount to call, they're making a much larger mistake paying $20 to play these hands than they would be paying $6 or $8. This is especially true with shallow stack depth, because their implied odds are shot.

Also - and this might be only somewhat related to what you're saying here - consider too all the dead money you can take advantage of when so many players try to play so much random crap. This is the online cash player in me speaking here but suppose someone in early position playing a pretty wide range makes it $14 and gets like 5 flat calls lol. You're in the blinds with AQo and have a decent stack of $240 or so. This is a golden opportunity to raise it up to maybe ~$80 with the intention of shoving almost any flop. You win the $85 or w/e in the pot right there sometimes but other times your squeeze gets one or two callers and when you shove you stand a good chance of winning a huge pot. Even if the shove happens to get called, just connecting with one of your over cards is often enough that you ~still~ win.

The expected value of such a play in terms of actual dollars is huge. It's much better than trying to out flop 6 different players by playing your hand out of position. You don't always need to wait to flop monsters to crush 1/2 live.
 
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mozartk551

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It could be the number of players moving from cash free rolls to live games. As the further you get in cash free rolls the more conservative the players get. So they may be taking this approach as they play longer and get accustomed to poker.
 
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TheVeryBlessed

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It could be the number of players moving from cash free rolls to live games. As the further you get in cash free rolls the more conservative the players get. So they may be taking this approach as they play longer and get accustomed to poker.

Could be
 
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