AK - Checking the flop with TPTK

R

Rafael Chow

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 13, 2016
Total posts
9
Chips
0
Xeester - Cash game pokerstars
Blindes : 0.01 $/0.02 $
[SB] Player 5
[BB] HERO
[UTG] Player 8
[UTG+1] Player 9
[HJ] Player 1
[CO] Player 2
[BTN] Player 4
*** PREFLOP ***[AD,KS]
Player 8 [UTG] : Raises 0.07$
Player 9 [UTG+1] : Folds
Player 1 [HJ] : Calls 0.07$
Player 2 [CO] : Folds
Player 4 [BTN] : Folds
Player 5 [SB] : Calls 0.06$
HERO [BB] : Raises 0.32$
Player 8 [UTG] : Folds
Player 1 [HJ] : Folds
Player 5 [SB] : Calls 0.27$
*** FLOP ***[AH,QC,4C]
Player 5 [SB] : Checks
HERO [BB] : Checks
*** TURN ***[AH,QC,4C,8D]
Player 5 [SB] : Checks
HERO [BB] : Bets 0.40$
Player 5 [SB] : Calls 0.40$
*** RIVER ***[AH,QC,4C,8D,4H]
Player 5 [SB] : Checks
HERO [BB] : Bets 1.38$
Player 5 [SB] : Calls 1.26$
HERO [BB] : Uncalled bet 0.12$
*** SHOWDOWN ***
HERO [BB] : Shows [AD,KS]
Player 5 [SB] : Shows [8H,8S]
Player 5 [SB] : Wins 4$
*** Exported with XEESTER www.xeester.com ***

Villain is a 20/20/9(50)

Everything standard for me preflop (please warn me if I'm doing something wrong! haha). However, I thought that were very few combos of worse hands that would continue the flop, AJs, basically (2 combos).

So check the flop, hoping to induce bluffs with underpairs. Unfortnatelly he hits a set on the turn and I get stacked.

My main issue with this hand is to know if I made a good decision on the flop or not.
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Total posts
2,264
Chips
0
I think the important question is this: if you had a hand that completely missed this flop, or left you with a gutshot straight and no flush cards: would you have c-bet then?

If you would have, then why not do it when you actually hit? Just to balance your check-through range? Not necessary at these stakes, vs players you only have 50 hands on. Do this vs regs you've played thousands of hands against.

Just bet the flop.
 
E

Erkebulan Muratbek

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 7, 2016
Total posts
1
Chips
0
for me it is not necessarily a gutshot bet continuation of the board do not dry, but in the first case it would be better to put my opinions clearly
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Total posts
2,665
Awards
1
Chips
7
As said above, no need to balance ranges here.

To answer the subject question, sometimes (but not very often) I will check TPTK at the micros (against about 5% of players, aka nits). If I am checking the flop it would usually be because I dont think villain will be making enough calling mistakes, and I think I would make more money in the long run by checking the flop and going for value on the turn, of course if aforementioned nit then raises I need to re-evaluate, and probably find the fold button.

By way of example I would be more likey to check AK on K38 rainbow than I would on say, KQ5 2 tone. As in the first example there would not be many hands a nit would continue with, but on the second hand I could bet say half of the pot and you might get some nits to call with slightly worse pairs/kickers or draws.

Remember, we dont just bet because lols we have TPTK, we bet for a reason, in this case betting TPTK because we think worse hands will call. If no worse hands are calling it isnt a very good value bet.
 
Last edited:
G

Grinder888

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 14, 2016
Total posts
123
Chips
0
just my amateur suggestion but this hand would be simpler to read if it had been converted better. Can anyone offer advice on how to convert raw hand history in a more readable output?
 
DrazaFFT

DrazaFFT

public static void
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Total posts
6,188
Chips
0
If 2nl is not the place to fire 3 streets for value with tptk that i dont know what is, please dont try to be fancy at 2nl, there is enough money to be won by value betting that you dont need to even think about inducing anything and even if you wanna induce anything this board is not the spot to give a free card but this is already said...
 
G

Grinder888

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 14, 2016
Total posts
123
Chips
0
Xeester - Cash game Pokerstars
Blindes : 0.01 $/0.02 $
[SB] Player 5
[BB] HERO
[UTG] Player 8
[UTG+1] Player 9
[HJ] Player 1
[CO] Player 2
[BTN] Player 4
*** PREFLOP ***[AD,KS]
Player 8 [UTG] : Raises 0.07$
Player 9 [UTG+1] : Folds
Player 1 [HJ] : Calls 0.07$
Player 2 [CO] : Folds
Player 4 [BTN] : Folds
Player 5 [SB] : Calls 0.06$
HERO [BB] : Raises 0.32$
Player 8 [UTG] : Folds
Player 1 [HJ] : Folds
Player 5 [SB] : Calls 0.27$
*** FLOP ***[AH,QC,4C]
Player 5 [SB] : Checks
HERO [BB] : Checks
*** TURN ***[AH,QC,4C,8D]
Player 5 [SB] : Checks
HERO [BB] : Bets 0.40$
Player 5 [SB] : Calls 0.40$
*** RIVER ***[AH,QC,4C,8D,4H]
Player 5 [SB] : Checks
HERO [BB] : Bets 1.38$
Player 5 [SB] : Calls 1.26$
HERO [BB] : Uncalled bet 0.12$
*** SHOWDOWN ***
HERO [BB] : Shows [AD,KS]
Player 5 [SB] : Shows [8H,8S]
Player 5 [SB] : Wins 4$
*** Exported with XEESTER www.xeester.com ***

Villain is a 20/20/9(50)

Everything standard for me preflop (please warn me if I'm doing something wrong! haha). However, I thought that were very few combos of worse hands that would continue the flop, AJs, basically (2 combos).

So check the flop, hoping to induce bluffs with underpairs. Unfortnatelly he hits a set on the turn and I get stacked.

My main issue with this hand is to know if I made a good decision on the flop or not.

First, welcome to the forum! Second, I'm also learning the ropes so take my advice with a grain of salt.

(One thing I see missing are the effective stack sizes which can be good to look at in a 3 bet pot. Reverse engineered it just now lol and seemed Eff stack is almost 100bb)

I liked your raise preflop. Also I think the SB made the wrong call preflop bc hitting set on flop is a 7.5 to 1 I guess. lets round it to 8, so 8 times V will call 26 additional = 208c and hit set 1 time and only if he stacks will he break even or little -EV (Just the basic idea not the precise calculations). That's why its always better to fold your small-medium pockets to big 3 or 4 bets.

Now unless V has Aces, which again less likely bc 2 of em are already out which leaves only one combination of Aces, or AQ you are likely good on this flop (not going into what ifs or long shots here). Now I think the rough Stack-to-Pot ratio here is 2 to 1, meaning you have double of what's in the pot left behind in your stack. This reduces your risk for the hand I think/guess. IP in a 3 bet pot with TPTK you should lead out 40-55% of the pot here. You don't want weaker hands to draw out on your made hand for free, you want to charge them. Also with the pot this big its definitely +EV I think to take it down on the flop. Also you never want to slow play your good hands at this limit. I have personally slow played my best hand on flops to get downgraded to 2nd best by river, hands which I could've most like ended on flop with aggression. So for 2NL slow play gets you in more grey spots then value and playing aggressive makes up with fat value for whatever 1-2 bets you lose at times due to it. That being said, slow play has a time and place and it is very opponent, situation and hand strength dependent.

Back to the hand: After the turn call I would be a little suspicious since V is decent as mentioned so some credit given. I am a somewhat semi passive /aggressive player so I wouldn't mind taking a free showdown on the river. Other option for me would be bet 1/2 pot or something but that risks being c/r which could put me off my hand or commit more to 2nd best hand. Like I said I'm semi passive so I wouldn't be stacking off on TPTK on the river after the turn call but I cant doubt it as well given our V checked river back.

V river check also makes me think about your stats for the session or in the sessions with this V so far cause he seemed to be having a good read on you. Either way this hand was not very badly played and we were setup to lose in the hand either way. I may add that he still could've had +EV here by showing aggression on flop. And this is just one of those countless situations where slow play gets us buried and out drawn coupled with the fact that aggression usually lets you see where your opponent is at (given you have a reasonable hand yourself) and slowplay with a marginal hand like TPTK just keeps us guessing. Either way if this hand was against a Semi Loose passive SLP or a Fish I would've happily stacked off and licked my wounds with no regrets.

Uh this got pretty lengthy so I guess this is my 50c ;)
 
M

mauroc711

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Total posts
70
Chips
0
Hi, my first post.

You had already obtained some value at hand.

In my opinion his hand demands to be aggressive, you had already obtained some value at hand. I don't feel good checking in similar situations, given another chance someone possibly seeking intermediate sets.

Greetings to all.
 
Top