AK - To cBet or not to cBet

As I've mentioned in a number of other threads, my biggest money earners online have been NL200/400 full ring cash games, using 60-75BB stacks.

The following statements apply primarily to situations where you are deeper stacked (ie 60BB or more in my opinion) and apply pretty much equally to MTTs and cash games in either 6 max or full ring.

A lot of players often complain that AK is a difficult hand to play deep stacked. With shorter stack sizes, it's generally an easy hand to shove preflop in SNGs, MTTs, or if you're a 20BB cash game ratholer (I hate them too, even though I play a mid-stack).

But with a deeper stack, big slick is much more difficult to play.

Here is a pretty common scenario:

EverestPoker Game #6273859481: Table Doha-2 - $0.25/$0.50 (5 handed) - No Limit Hold'em - 21:55:24 - 2010/11/01

saw flop | saw showdown

(UTG+1) Hero($92.50)
(CO) Cpt-Kobold ($60.45)
(BU) sprengel ($83.85)
(SB ) -TiTaNa- ($52.30)
(BB ) HrsTnk ($66.05)
-TiTaNa- posts the small blind of $0.25
HrsTnk posts the big blind of $0.50

Dealt to Hero K:heart: A:spade:
Heroraises to $1.50
Cpt-Kobold calls $1.50
2 fold(s)
HrsTnk calls $1.00

Flop: (4.75) A:heart: 4:diamond: 9:spade: (3 players)

HrsTnk checks
Hero ???

As the hero, what is your general play here? If you were heads up in position, how would that change your decision?

It is my personal opinion that a cBet in both of these situations is rarely the correct play, however I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

So, what would you do and why?

Well, I only play STT and MTT, and my answer will be only related to these formats, but since you mentioned them as well, ok. And I am only talking post flop, were you also wanting to know PF opinions?

In a standard STT 60BB will not be the case, and in an MTT stack sizes will obviously play a big role too. HU I am MAYBE (this will depend on villain and how Ive seen him play) C/Ring here, but I think I am c-betting all day long. You believe a c-bet is rarely right, why is that? Are you planing on a C/R here? With a 3 player pot I am c betting, but what? This will depend on my reads on the 2 players still in the pot. Are they TP? Then I am only giving a free card by not c betting, unless one has an A. If I am pretty sure CPT will raise my check then OK, But what is his range for calling me PF here? I can only guess since I have no idea how these guys play. No way do I want to risk letting a free card go through, and I want some value as well. For me the only question is bet size, and what do I want to accomplish with it? I want action on this board, and will bet big against TP players and mid to small against a potential LAG re-raise. I may just want to try to take the pot now, but as I said, I dont know enough about my table to really say.

But to answer your question, yes I am c-betting here. I know its a dry board, but Ax is a hand you will see calling here (in my stake STT and MTTs anyway) and I dont want to give x any chances to pop up for free.

Wow...only 1 reply. I was hoping for at least a few people to tear me apart for this one. I guess that means most people agree with me? Or the OP was tl;dr?

You believe a c-bet is rarely right, why is that? Are you planing on a C/R here? With a 3 player pot I am c betting, but what?

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While I'd prefer an example where I have position 3-handed or I'm HU in position, I'm rarely cBetting here because I don't believe it's the best way to extract chips in a situation where my AK is usually pretty far ahead of my opponent's range.

Yes, I get action from Ax, and maybe one street of action from a pocket pair or 9x, but in a simple raised pot with 1 or 2 callers, that is a fairly small part of their range.

In the long run, I believe you gain less from cBetting this board and gain more from checking behind, even moreso when you're HU.

That said, I will cBet occasionally to balance my actions on a A-high dry flop, so I can realistically represent the A with a cBet when I've totally missed the flop, but that's the only value I can see in cBetting this board.

Anyone else want to throw in their 2 cents before I continue?

I am inclined to think that you would play this hand completely different in cash and any MTT-STT setting. If you are going for a good cash and move on to the next hand, or are you also considering your tournament life, time invested in this one etc? As I said, I am a clueless cash player - I sadly keep proving that to myself lol - so my comments are entirely about tourny structured games.

Are you flatting the bet, or C/Ring here? Cause with 2 other players and a hand that is almost certainly ahead now but still vulnerable, I want to bet now for value and maybe make it small enough for a re raise, but IMO giving 2 other players a chance to see a free card is just not good. If you are sure enough a bet is coming, OK, but in that case a small probe bet may just as well induce the RR and then you can push back hard.

In general, I'm usually check-calling the flop. If it gets checked around, I'll use a delayed cBet on the turn.

My goal with a TPTK hand, especially when deep stacked, is to get no more than 2 streets of value, and to do so when I'm pretty sure I'm ahead, which means I'm only check-raising here against terrible loose-passive players I think will go broke with AQ or AJ.

Again, I prefer to use this line when headsup, but I still think it applies against 2 players. If I cBet this flop, there are not enough hands in my opponent's range that will call 2 bets with worse than TPTK. The risk of being outdrawn at this point is so slim, that slowplaying is worth the risk, especially since you'll now be able to induce bluffs from the bulk of the hands you have crushed. I don't want to bloat the pot with a hand that plays well in smaller pots, but is often crushed when the pot gets large.

In order to maximize the amount won/hand with TPTK, especially in today's game, you're better off bluff catching than betting for value, especially on such a dry flop.

I think this applies in NL50+ and larger buy-in ($20+) SNGs and MTTs (I'm not a microplayer).

JMcCabe said:

I think this applies in NL50+ and larger buy-in ($20+) SNGs and MTTs (I'm not a microplayer).

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OK, I do mainly under 10$, usually 3-5$ buy ins, and you know - probably - what ranges look like here.

And LOL, we have our own little private thread here

Yeah, at the lower limits, I think cBetting more often is ok, because you'll often get people stacking off with AQ, AJ.

But at the higher limits, that stops happening as often, so you need to adapt to make the most of TPTK hands.

to me it depends entirly on your read on the villain if he is the great white elephant thats going to call everything you bet if he is tight as a knats butt cheeks bet.anywhere in between check raise. me personally most of the time i cbet as i would rather win a small pot than allow someone to get a card for free and lose me a big pot. if your opponent has a raggy a or if he set farming or even playing connectors he can hit another card and its gonna cost you chips/money.
so rely on you knowledge of your opponent

^^ This was the myth I was trying to dispell with this thread. ^^

Though I do like the part about how it's opponent dependent. I still think against the majority of opponents, a cBet is rarely the best course of action with TPTK.

If you had flopped a set of nines in your example are you betting? If so, why?

Floating the flop...

fletchdad said:

I am inclined to think that you would play this hand completely different in cash and any MTT-STT setting. If you are going for a good cash and move on to the next hand, or are you also considering your tournament life, time invested in this one etc? As I said, I am a clueless cash player - I sadly keep proving that to myself lol - so my comments are entirely about tourny structured games.

Are you flatting the bet, or C/Ring here? Cause with 2 other players and a hand that is almost certainly ahead now but still vulnerable, I want to bet now for value and maybe make it small enough for a re raise, but IMO giving 2 other players a chance to see a free card is just not good. If you are sure enough a bet is coming, OK, but in that case a small probe bet may just as well induce the RR and then you can push back hard.

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I generally in cash game would float the flop if in first position to induce a bet and flatten to take it on the turn.

JMcCabe said:

As I've mentioned in a number of other threads, my biggest money earners online have been NL200/400 full ring cash games, using 60-75BB stacks.

The following statements apply primarily to situations where you are deeper stacked (ie 60BB or more in my opinion) and apply pretty much equally to MTTs and cash games in either 6 max or full ring.

A lot of players often complain that AK is a difficult hand to play deep stacked. With shorter stack sizes, it's generally an easy hand to shove preflop in SNGs, MTTs, or if you're a 20BB cash game ratholer (I hate them too, even though I play a mid-stack).

But with a deeper stack, big slick is much more difficult to play.

Here is a pretty common scenario:

EverestPoker Game #6273859481: Table Doha-2 - $0.25/$0.50 (5 handed) - No Limit Hold'em - 21:55:24 - 2010/11/01

saw flop | saw showdown

(UTG+1) Hero($92.50)
(CO) Cpt-Kobold ($60.45)
(BU) sprengel ($83.85)
(SB ) -TiTaNa- ($52.30)
(BB ) HrsTnk ($66.05)
-TiTaNa- posts the small blind of $0.25
HrsTnk posts the big blind of $0.50

Dealt to Hero K♥ A♠
Heroraises to $1.50
Cpt-Kobold calls $1.50
2 fold(s)
HrsTnk calls $1.00

Flop: (4.75) A♥ 4♦ 9♠ (3 players)

HrsTnk checks
Hero ???

As the hero, what is your general play here? If you were heads up in position, how would that change your decision?

It is my personal opinion that a cBet in both of these situations is rarely the correct play, however I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

So, what would you do and why?

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Were either of the villains regs? Are either the type that would float the flop and bet/ raise the turn with air? What were their stats? What is your table image? If you have a very narrow opening range from EP then an observant opponent would have to wonder if you only had TPTK or a set of Aces.

What is your goal for the hand? I am coming around to AK from Early Position being a set up hand for big pots later in a session. How you act on the flop should be consistent for AK that hits TPTK as you would play Top Set. In heads up pots, if you consistently bet on each street then bet the flop, bet the turn with AK. If you like to check/call the flop and lead on the turn do that. I think the best way to get action on scary boards is to get to some river showdowns with air and show that you will hammer at pots with nothing. Then when you have it they won't believe you.

As far as this specific hand, you are multi-way and if you check you will probably lose the initiative. I say bet 1/2 pot here. You not only have TPTK but the board is pretty dry so if you get called, villain is not likely to be drawing. Possible hands that might call and not re-raise would be A9 or 99,44, if opponent is tricky, but if they think you might not lay down TPTK to a set they may re-raise so I would definitely fold to a re-raise, as I doubt that KK QQ JJ TT flat call your preflop bet. This might be a place to check/fold the turn and probably check again on the river as A9 T9 98 (possibly TT) type hands may look for a cheap showdown.

One nice thing about pairing the Ace is your hand is not vulnerable to someone making a higher pair, so if you don't want to bet out then I would strongly urge you to check/raise if here. TPTK is a good hand s it would be a shame to throw it away by surrendering.When in doubt bet and if you don't feel that you can bet then check/ fold. It keeps decisions simpler.

Generally i think i'm just checking behind here, c-betting doesnt really achieve a lot. If we're ahead now, we're likely to be ahead by the river, so how many 'outs' are we giving our opponant here? If he has a pocket pair, we give him 2 outs to beat us, if he has literally anything else, then he is drawing very thin. Checking a flop like this has a few advantages too, the main one's being we can induce bluffs from worse hands, whereas a c-bet they may just fold. And also it adds a bit of deception to our range. i could add more but i'm just about falling asleep at the keyboard, so thats all i have for now

WiZZiM said:

Generally i think i'm just checking behind here, c-betting doesnt really achieve a lot. If we're ahead now, we're likely to be ahead by the river, so how many 'outs' are we giving our opponant here? If he has a pocket pair, we give him 2 outs to beat us, if he has literally anything else, then he is drawing very thin. Checking a flop like this has a few advantages too, the main one's being we can induce bluffs from worse hands, whereas a c-bet they may just fold. And also it adds a bit of deception to our range. i could add more but i'm just about falling asleep at the keyboard, so thats all i have for now

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I think this strategy is centered around winning this hand. Isn't the goal of NLHE to get your opponent's stack? If your bet does not indicate to your opponent whether you have TPTK, a set, an overpair, two pair or air, how can he exploit you? By taking the risk of losing small and mediuum pots you create situations where you can get someone to put their stack in the middle with 2nd best hand.

I bet nearly every A high flop when I'm the PFR.

WVHillbilly said:

If you had flopped a set of nines in your example are you betting? If so, why?

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This is a great question and I think it reflects what OP is stating. There are 2 reasons your not gonna bet out AK here, one being your not likely to get drawn out on seeing as no over cards can fall and no flush/straight draws, and another reason is because most players are not likely to call here. Now with 99 you have a ton of hands that can draw out on you and you would love to take the pot down right here. So put in a value/protection bet with the added incentive of taking down the pot right there a good portion of the time and a bet becomes very profitable.

If I were first to act I'd go for check-raise for sure; last to act I'd check behind. Since we're second here I could go any way. I think betting like 40% of pot is OK (that would be my standard in a HU 3-bet pot).

Numbuh 0ne said:

This is a great question and I think it reflects what OP is stating. There are 2 reasons your not gonna bet out AK here, one being your not likely to get drawn out on seeing as no over cards can fall and no flush/straight draws, and another reason is because most players are not likely to call here. Now with 99 you have a ton of hands that can draw out on you and you would love to take the pot down right here. So put in a value/protection bet with the added incentive of taking down the pot right there a good portion of the time and a bet becomes very profitable.

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This is a smart post.

Checking is fine because at this level we definitely have to have some good hands in our checking range and our relative hand strength is almost the same as a set on a board this dry (WA/WB, very few combos beat us). Likewise we obviously want nut hands in our c-betting range so betting with a set of 9s is fine.

if you bet here and get called by BB I think you have to consider checking back turn sometimes.

LuckyChippy said:

I bet nearly every A high flop when I'm the PFR.

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This.

Often enough you see folds without aces in your hands. If you see a vilain cbet every time there is an ace, and he is on a wider range than just aces, are you going to call a cbet there just to see the turn reaction? If he checks the turn after a cbet, will you put agression on him?

I think both of these questions have "yes" as the answer with the right table image. Not removing all the A10/AJ/AQ hands that will call you there because he will think just like you. "I am in really good shape with my AQ, I'll give him a free card just in case he hits a middle jack"

Although this will definatly change depending on the vilain, I will definatly bet this. Unless I wasn't c-beting aces in position earlier.

Wow, glad to see this thread finally took off a little.

Just a quick note: the posted hand was simply added as an example. I probably should have gone with an AK hand flopping on a K or A-high board, HU IP, but I think style of playing AK is also suitable when 3 handed.

If I flop a set of 9s on that board, I'm probably cBetting 9 times out of 10, because a set of 9s on that board is basically the nuts. If a villian has an A there is a chance I can take their stack, so I want to build as big a pot as possible.

With AK, my hand is usually best in small or medium sized pots, but rarely best when playing for stacks, so my goal is to get roughly 2 streets of value. I probably cBet about 1 in 5 times, and check the rest. My passive play will induce bluffs from lesser hands, so in many cases I'm able to get 2 streets of value without having to force the action. My delayed cBet will also cause a lot of lesser hands to think, he can't have the A because he would have cBet the flop.

As such, I tend to agree with Wizzim/Numbah One's analysis and disagree with fx. That's not to say fx is wrong, it's just that we have different playing styles and different ways of extracting value. For those of you who have looked at my graph, you'll have seen that both my red and blue lines rise over time. cBetting too much or unprofitably is a key reason a large number of regs have a falling red line, which is compounded due to multitabling.

As for betting nearly every A high flop as the PFR, I think this is a good way to burn chips/money. You'll usually be called and put in difficult situations when you're way behind and fold out hands you would otherwise be able to extract value from. I'd say I cBet roughly 20-30% of A-high flops as the PFR, often with hands that have totally missed the flop, though occasionally with aces, and will go for a delayed cBet roughly 80% of the time it's checked to me on the turn.

I estimate that at least 60-70% of the time that I cbet on a ace board being the PFR, note: against a nit regular, I get a fold.

Without considering weither I have aces or not, I am prety certain cbetting that ace is the right move at this current blind structure. For 30% of the time that I don't get a fold, I can easily either let go on turn or I am holding an ace and stack off A 9 - A J

Remember, this is 2NL, I am prety certain cbeting aces 80% at 25NL would be suicide.

Take a look at the red line:

So if we are checking the flop HU in position are you just calling a bet on the turn and river from villain? or raising?

On one hand you say you want to extract as much as possible from villain but you also say that our hand plays well in smaller or medium sized pots.

Numbuh 0ne said:

This is a great question and I think it reflects what OP is stating. There are 2 reasons your not gonna bet out AK here, one being your not likely to get drawn out on seeing as no over cards can fall and no flush/straight draws, and another reason is because most players are not likely to call here. Now with 99 you have a ton of hands that can draw out on you and you would love to take the pot down right here. So put in a value/protection bet with the added incentive of taking down the pot right there a good portion of the time and a bet becomes very profitable.

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Why are we giving hands like Ax or 9x the chance to catch up by hitting two pair? I don't overly mind a check with 99, seeing as there are definitely not tons of hands that can outdraw you (you've got a set man)

On this board we still get plenty of value from AQ/AJ/AT, if the board stays nice for us we could probably get 3 streets of value from AQ/AJ and betting the flop makes our river bet significantly bigger.

Some good points guys. I'll tackle them one by one.

Remember, this is 2NL, I am prety certain cbeting aces 80% at 25NL would be suicide. Take a look at the red line:

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Good post overall imo. cBetting regularly at NL2 is a good default strategy on A-high flops, but that will change as you go up in stakes. Can't see your red line, but I bet it's impressive.

You get more value and win bigger pots without showdown (red line) when you allow your opponents to bluff into you more often, before you take them off their hand. If you are always betting out on A-high flops, you're often winning the minimum when you are likely well ahead (80/20 or 90/10 favourite). If you used delayed cBets and check-call with the intention of betting for value on the river, you'll win bigger pots when your opponent folds.

So if we are checking the flop HU in position are you just calling a bet on the turn and river from villain? or raising? On one hand you say you want to extract as much as possible from villain but you also say that our hand plays well in smaller or medium sized pots.

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I'm looking to get 2 streets of value from my opponent, so in general I'm calling turn and betting river, or betting turn if it's checked to me. Again, nothing in poker should be done 100% of the time, but this is my default play about 70% of the time (against unknowns + players I believe this line works best against). Against certain villians I might raise the turn and against others, or depending on the turn card, I might check behind (though very rarely).

With TPTK I have a hand that will usually be good at showdown, so I don't want to bloat the pot in earlier streets to allow my opponent to make big bluffs on later streets. I want to get to showdown as often as possible with roughly 2 decent sized bets made, either by me or my opponent.

Why are we giving hands like Ax or 9x the chance to catch up by hitting two pair? I don't overly mind a check with 99, seeing as there are definitely not tons of hands that can outdraw you (you've got a set man)

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This is backwards thinking, imo. With TPTK, you have a good hand that will rarely get outdrawn on (less than 20% of this time your opponent improves to 2 pair), so you'll get to showdown with the best hand at least 70% of the time (extra 5-10% for when your opponent flops a set/two pair).

With a set, you have an almost unbeatable hand and there is an A out there, so you want to play a big pot and build it as quickly as possible. Cbet and hope he raises.

On this board we still get plenty of value from AQ/AJ/AT, if the board stays nice for us we could probably get 3 streets of value from AQ/AJ and betting the flop makes our river bet significantly bigger.

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Maybe at the lower limits, but not as you go up past NL25-50. Again, I play NL200/400 primarily.

If the pots starts getting big and you only have TPTK, you're almost always behind. AQ/AJ/AT do not give you 3 streets of value, and looking for 3 streets of value or stacking off with only TPTK is insane imo.

Pascal LeFiscal said:

Why are we giving hands like Ax or 9x the chance to catch up by hitting two pair? I don't overly mind a check with 99, seeing as there are definitely not tons of hands that can outdraw you (you've got a set man)

On this board we still get plenty of value from AQ/AJ/AT, if the board stays nice for us we could probably get 3 streets of value from AQ/AJ and betting the flop makes our river bet significantly bigger.

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I just reread some of this thread and I realized I was talking about if I had pocket 99's and not a set. So I guess the way I explained it it was like we had TT here.

Aside from that slight f-up, I don't think we get outdrawn by those hands a whole bunch and we would end up getting value out of them on later streets. I really don't think there are enough hands worse than ours that can call at this point. Now this is obviously very villian dependent and I'm playing a 60/40 a whole lot different than I'm playing a 22/19.

Also, how many times have we been to a flop with AK, do a standard continuation, keep up the pressure on the turn and then all of a sudden get reraised. Why do we not like this? Because we're getting to much value from just our TPTK. We wanna keep the pot reasonable because TPTK doesn't win a whole lot of big postflop hands.