Ah Kh from small blind

Situation - MTT NLHE, 3100 players, blinds $25/$50, I had Ah Kh in small blind. Five limped in front of me & bb still to go. I rsd to $300 - leaving me with $2850 - bb and one folded, 4 called, so 5 to see the flop. Pot now stands at $1600. Flop of 4 10 Q rainbow with one heart. From here I've got a dilemma. I've got a gotshot straight draw, a double-run flush draw, and two overcards, so I'd like to see another, but if I bet out and get raised I'm tossing a big portion of my stack at a draw. So I checked, it checked around to the button, and he bet $950. I folded as did 3 others, but one called and of course the J was flipped. A 4 color rainbow board of 4 10 Q J. The caller checked, the button pushed ai (button began play with a larger chip stack than mine), and the caller folded and the button took down a $3500 pot. Had I stayed and the J still played (you never know if the board plays the same on-line), I would most likely taken down a $9K+ pot. Should I have committed 1/3 of my stack in that situation on what was most likely a draw?

No, it was a correct fold. With 5 to a flop and I didn't have great reads on the players, I would even consider folding AA in your spot.

After I read your thread, a video came into my mind. I think it was Berry Greenstein and Durrr. He was sort of in your situation, I'm going to try to look for it!

you made the correct play.

i think your preflop raise was a little smallish, especially as your out of position, with 5 calls thats around 300 odd in the pot, your raise needs to be about 5-600 here to be effective.

No, good play on your part. This looks early in the tourney when play is usually pretty loose. With four others in the pot then you can be sure someone will have a hand they will call with - things like a J9, T8, Q6, 77, T4. In this situation only a J helps you as you can't be sure an A or K won't complete someone's straight. The fact a J came is irrelevant.

Early in MTTs you have to dump premium hands that miss the flop out of position in a multiway pot. Save your chip for another spot.

As others have said, the initial raise should have been bigger.
Thin the field a little bit.

The flop wasn't good for you BUT with a bigger initial raise you may have eliminated the button.
But considering the flop as it went down you made the right move in folding.

Post flop I would assume the button was making a standard continuation raise, so he could have had A-10, A-J, a small pair 5-6-7's or complete air and was playing position.

The one last caller, checked again on the turn and opened the door for the button to take pot.

I think you made the correct play, and i'm also not 100% sure that the "J" would of came on the turn because I don't think on-line plays the same as in a live event. I always thought online poker was a little rigged, but now I know that I just get very unlucky when it comes to the river LOL.

AK question

with your gut shot and 2 overs you have 10 outs. divide outs into 45 and subtract 1 = card odds so 3.5 -1 to hit on turn. mulitply odds x opponents wager , pot must be more to have correct odds to call.

*this does not include implied odds. you did not have correct odds to call for the turn turn with pot only 1,600.00 but if you hit your over card and or gut shot and based on players you thought more money would be pot by river then you probably had implied odds.

The preflop raise with that many limpers was too weak.

The fold was correct. Out of position you want a big bet to thin the field, so that if others miss (or come up with less than 2 pair) they will fold to your continuation bet.

I would have considered 500-600. You have had the entire table limp in, which means that they do not have strong hands. By the time the action gets to you, you are out of position with a hand that is like to be best. You must raise more. 6x BB is not enough when that's in the pot already.

Thanks to all

for your replies and advice. The recommendation to increase the pre-flop raise in that situation is certainly justified, I was wondering the same thing myself, live and learn I guess. As for the rigging response, sadly I have to agree. The on-line deck does not seem to be dealt nearly so randomly as a live deck is. There are two very quirky things I've noticed about on-line NLHE, one is that in all-in pre-flop or all-in on the flop situations (not just my hands, but all action) the turn card on-line all-to-often gives whomever is behind more outs. The second is that too many boards tend to flop something like 7 8 9, or 10 J K, where all cards fit nicely to a straight possibility. But as I essentially play only small dollar ($2-$10) tournaments I don't sweat it much, I play for the fun of the action as much as anything, and besides I'm ahead so I guess I can't complain. Still, if on-line poker is ever legalized in the U.S., I would hope the bill is written with such language so as to prohibit deck-rigging to any degree. If I knew with certainty that a site existed that dealt a perfectly clean deck, my allegiance would be switched in a heartbeat.

whoulda like to seen larger raise mmaybe to 500...Then value bet flop..its worth the investment into those implied odds

tommygunz said:

for your replies and advice. The recommendation to increase the pre-flop raise in that situation is certainly justified, I was wondering the same thing myself, live and learn I guess. As for the rigging response, sadly I have to agree. The on-line deck does not seem to be dealt nearly so randomly as a live deck is. There are two very quirky things I've noticed about on-line NLHE, one is that in all-in pre-flop or all-in on the flop situations (not just my hands, but all action) the turn card on-line all-to-often gives whomever is behind more outs. The second is that too many boards tend to flop something like 7 8 9, or 10 J K, where all cards fit nicely to a straight possibility. But as I essentially play only small dollar ($2-$10) tournaments I don't sweat it much, I play for the fun of the action as much as anything, and besides I'm ahead so I guess I can't complain. Still, if on-line poker is ever legalized in the U.S., I would hope the bill is written with such language so as to prohibit deck-rigging to any degree. If I knew with certainty that a site existed that dealt a perfectly clean deck, my allegiance would be switched in a heartbeat.

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If you feel that a site is rigging decks you should not play on the site. Each card is assigned a value between 1 and 52, and they take a random number for each card dealt, and voila! steamed vegetables and chicken!

At least, that's how it's supposed to work. You probably see a lot of hands like that online because you're playing a lot more hands per hour online than you would paper.

I have been running terrible online and live lately. Every time I get suited connectors in my hole, the flop comes 3 suited cards, close to eachother, not in my suit, or close enough for me to have so much as a draw. e.g. my 87 spades sees flop of AK9 all hearts.

It happens in live as it does online. There's not a lot you can do but let your hand go if you think you're beat.

If online poker was really rigged then no one would ever consistently win as the maths needed to do so wouldn't work.

Optomistic

CA poker coach said:

with your gut shot and 2 overs you have 10 outs. divide outs into 45 and subtract 1 = card odds so 3.5 -1 to hit on turn. mulitply odds x opponents wager , pot must be more to have correct odds to call.

*this does not include implied odds. you did not have correct odds to call for the turn turn with pot only 1,600.00 but if you hit your over card and or gut shot and based on players you thought more money would be pot by river then you probably had implied odds.

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I think the Jacks are the only clean outs you can count when there are 4

other players in the pot. too many cards already in the playzone you just

dont know if people are in there with QT, AT, KT these hands are all

possibilties in your opponents range. Implied odds I think are only relevant if

the Jack comes which it obv did. 11to1 I personally would of folded to that

big bet.also played the hand right and then wished like you I had called when

the Jack hit on the turn. But hey most hands looked at in a Vacuum can

mess with ya head. Think long term and make decisions based on that.

Wow

ozvillain said:

If online poker was really rigged then no one would ever consistently win as the maths needed to do so wouldn't work.

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Man, play online for 3years then tell me if you would still print that up on a bumpersticker?

Right decision to fold. Your gonna see crap like that happen all the time. And you will say ooooo I shoulda stayed in every time but if you had you woulda just been playing low percentage poker and that will lose you money over time.

I would have made a larger preflop raise. Other than that, you made the correct fold. That is just what happens when you cannot scare away medium strength hands.

I can't remember exactly where or from which pro I read this, but there is a notion out there that people raise in the SB way too often. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have raised this hand in particular, but raising OOP is tricky even with hands like AKs. If you watch you'll notice a number of the pros tend to limp in the SB with premium hands unless they're already made. A limp in this position, even with AKs, is not a bad play IMO.

Having said that, I think you almost have to commit to a cb even before you see the flop no matter what, otherwise you'll have no idea where you are in the hand--they'll try to bluff you out every single time for sure if you check the flop. Previous posters have already pointed out that your preflop raise was too small and I agree with that; again mainly because of your poor position in the hand.

Everyone is saying fold is the right play but I don't think too many are giving consideration to the flop bettor and the situation. Everyone is just looking at OP's cards.

After the flop with 4 people to act before him the action is folded around to the button who has the big stack and is looking at a lot of dead money in the pot. There is a good chance the button is stealing here. In fact there is a real good chance he's stealing or betting a marginal hand.

I would seriously consider a check-shove here. I doubt if the button has AA,KK or QQ here since with that many others in the pot he almost has to raise pre-flop with those hands. The only hand that can't fold to your shove is A-Q, or 10,10 or 4-4 and there is a good chance A-Q or 10-10 raises preflop too. Anything else, even a decent hand after the flop such as K-Q or A-10 has a very tough decision and obviously a steal or weak draw has to fold.

tommygunz said:

for your replies and advice. The recommendation to increase the pre-flop raise in that situation is certainly justified, I was wondering the same thing myself, live and learn I guess. As for the rigging response, sadly I have to agree. The on-line deck does not seem to be dealt nearly so randomly as a live deck is. There are two very quirky things I've noticed about on-line NLHE, one is that in all-in pre-flop or all-in on the flop situations (not just my hands, but all action) the turn card on-line all-to-often gives whomever is behind more outs. The second is that too many boards tend to flop something like 7 8 9, or 10 J K, where all cards fit nicely to a straight possibility. But as I essentially play only small dollar ($2-$10) tournaments I don't sweat it much, I play for the fun of the action as much as anything, and besides I'm ahead so I guess I can't complain. Still, if on-line poker is ever legalized in the U.S., I would hope the bill is written with such language so as to prohibit deck-rigging to any degree. If I knew with certainty that a site existed that dealt a perfectly clean deck, my allegiance would be switched in a heartbeat.

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actually im pretty sure its more random, due to the advanced random number generators.... whereas live, there are factors that could affect the shuffling of the cards... (bad dealers, faulty machines etc, sticky cards?)

I would have considered a smallish donk cbet here, but whether or not the players understand that is betting style is likely to be a big hand depends on the level of play.

I think the smallish cbet from out of position achieves a few things. First of all you should seem more strong than you really are here meaning that you will win the pot a decent percentage of time. Second you can suckout and third you can take command and keep the pot small since the other players will rarely raise without a monster (and then you have a easy fold).

Also if you think about the turn, you will improve to more outs when a heart hits meaning that you can continue barreling making it especially difficult for a opponent that just called your bet on the flop.

That is just one suggestion as to how the hand can be played differently, but you should always try to play the hand optimally depending on what the situation is.

preflop raise was too small with that many limpers, but you really wanted to see a turn to see if you improved, remember that you raised preflop so a cbet could have served you well, the raiser of 950 might have just called in that spot and you would have gotten to the turn without putting in a great deal of your stack.

Absolutely a correct call to fold, however I would most likely have limped with AK and looked to hit it big on the flop then trap the opponents. Could get you into a lot of trouble however, so a raise works as well, but I would prefer about 8x BB raise (normal 3x + 1x per limper)

That was a nice fold. That the J had come is not count. You could call and if it not comes u lose a lot of money. A-K-J and 2 h were your outs. Thats not many.