Aggression at $2NL

Hi! I'm really after some regular $2NL crushers or people that have crushed this limit to give me some pointers.

I'm really struggling with effective aggression at this level as I seem to be called down continuously by players that will usually hit some lucky hand and beat me.

Firstly, blind stealing. Is there any point in $2NL? Raising for value on the button or cut off with a good hand is fine of course, but making a play with a marginal holding barely works as you'll be donked into or your c-bet will get called.

I think I limp far too much and my stats off the top of my head are (no PT3 here at the mo) 20/10. I know that's a huge gap but it just seems limping for cheap then getting out the way when you miss is better than raising and getting called and losing what has taken you an hour to achieve.

Please request any PT3 stats from me so that you can analyse any of my leaks. Any help here is greatly appreciated.

I'm one frustrated Pokerman.

pokerman27 said:

Hi! I'm really after some regular $2NL crushers or people that have crushed this limit to give me some pointers.

I'm really struggling with effective aggression at this level as I seem to be called down continuously by players that will usually hit some lucky hand and beat me.

Firstly, blind stealing. Is there any point in $2NL? Raising for value on the button or cut off with a good hand is fine of course, but making a play with a marginal holding barely works as you'll be donked into or your c-bet will get called.

I think I limp far too much and my stats off the top of my head are (no PT3 here at the mo) 20/10. I know that's a huge gap but it just seems limping for cheap then getting out the way when you miss is better than raising and getting called and losing what has taken you an hour to achieve.

Please request any PT3 stats from me so that you can analyse any of my leaks. Any help here is greatly appreciated.

I'm one frustrated Pokerman.

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I actually played some 2NL whilst testing out a layout for someone.

It was funny.

People limp way too much, people call way too much. So just fold until you have a premium hand then look to get the money in very quickly.

On an K72 board they could have 77,22,K7,K2 but far more likely is KT,K9,K8,K6,K5,K4,K3 QQ JJ TT AQ AJ

So you wait for a premium hand like AK and then look to get the money in fast. Raise preflop, then look to shove the turn.

The mistake people are making is to call too often and too light so don't play hands that are tricky postflop.. you want high Broadway, high pocket pairs and thats it really. Anything else will be getting outdrawn too quickly.

Once they see you start shoving and showing premium hands, then you can steal blinds.

The other thing is play in position.

QJ is a terrible hand in EP-MP and you are going to struggle in a game where people limp too much and don't know how to fold because you are forcing yourself to play fit or fold out of position.

TP 3rd kicker is a monster on the flop in this game. A lot of players look at their cards, see they have TP and dont think about the kicker. So just get the money in. People seem to think that large raises are bluffs and love to call them. Dont bluff.. ever! just value bet light. TP 3rd Kicker has value in this game. people love to chase draws, if there is a draw on, stack off... let tem put their whole stack in and loose rather than just a bit of it on the flop and turn just to fold when the draw dosent come in on the river. If you have a hand on a flush board on the flop stack off!! They will call and draws miss more than they hit! Just make sure you have a reasonable hand.

Just play tight and play in position and get your money in with better hands than they tend to get their money in with.. thats it really!

pokerman27 said:

Firstly, blind stealing. Is there any point in $2NL?

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No.

pokerman27 said:

I think I limp far too much and my stats off the top of my head are (no PT3 here at the mo) 20/10. I know that's a huge gap but it just seems limping for cheap then getting out the way when you miss is better than raising and getting called and losing what has taken you an hour to achieve.

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You should be trying to see cheap flops with pairs (maybe suited aces if we're going to be multi-way) because...

We AREN'T grinding out an hours profit to, over play our hands and, get called down by players who do not know how to fold. We're folding everything until we get the nuts, and then figuring out how to get stacks in, against players who can't fold second pair.

They're goofballs, don't focus on stealing their pennies, stack'em off.

Double-A said:

No.



You should be trying to see cheap flops with pairs (maybe suited aces if we're going to be multi-way) because...

We AREN'T grinding out an hours profit to, over play our hands and, get called down by players who do not know how to fold. We're folding everything until we get the nuts, and then figuring out how to get stacks in, against players who can't fold second pair.

They're goofballs, don't focus on stealing their pennies, stack'em off.

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I dont agree with cheap flops.

THe kind of hand we are playing is the kind of hand that we will be stacking off with a lot of the time, so we need to raise preflop for 3 reasons.

1. we are already beginning to build the pot (although we will still fold some flops)
2. as we are not playing speculative junk we want a HU/ 3 way pot rather than multi -way (as this favours speculative junk)
3. we do increase our chances opf a c-bet working when we have shown significant strength preflop (but again we need to fold should it fail).

Cheap flops suggest junk hands and multiway pots.

Personally I wouldn't cold call from any position, If I am playing I am raising or 3-betting.

Thanks guys.

In terms of the PFR - I usually work between 4-6BBs should I make the raise larger?

Stu_Ungar said:

I dont agree with cheap flops.

THe kind of hand we are playing is the kind of hand that we will be stacking off with a lot of the time, so we need to raise preflop for 3 reasons.

1. we are already beginning to build the pot (although we will still fold some flops)
2. as we are not playing speculative junk we want a HU/ 3 way pot rather than multi -way (as this favours speculative junk)
3. we do increase our chances opf a c-bet working when we have shown significant strength preflop (but again we need to fold should it fail).

Cheap flops suggest junk hands and multiway pots.

Personally I wouldn't cold call from any position, If I am playing I am raising or 3-betting.

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Hrmmm... I don't have any $2NL hands...

What you're saying makes sense...

I think the flip side to what you said is:

1) We can build the pot when/how ever we choose.
2) The more opponents, the more chances some one will stack off.
3) Cbetting is a lost cause.

Open raise from MP/LP? Sure.

But, I think limping behind with small/med pairs is okay. I think open limping from EP w/ the same, and calling standard raises is okay. I think limping behind 2+ limpers with Axs is okay.

Lol, I'm afraid to really dig into my hands at to back this up... I'm running good and don't want to come up w/ any "new" ideas.

I just think too many micro-players try to play good starting hands and bang them out for value. Then get frustrated when J6 calls them down and rivers something nasty. I think micro players should focus on flopping huge hands and THEN hammer down.

Double-A said:

But, I think limping behind with small/med pairs is okay. I think open limping from EP w/ the same, and calling standard raises is okay. I think limping behind 2+ limpers with Axs is okay.

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Why?

They dont play back at us they just call way too much.

So Axs means that AKs AQs even AJs yes but A5s, A2s ?

1. we have to hit a flush board
2. we need an opponent who either has a flush draw or a big hand he cant let go of. (hang on, that's fit or fold.. that's how they play!!)
3. we start getting our money in against stronger aces (that's their mistake)

In order to crush these players we simply have to exploit their biggest mistake, they call too much and refuse to fold.

Filter your hands by position, have a look at your win rate for 22-77 and AXs where x =/= K,Q,J

Compare that to AJ+ KQs, 77+ The difference should be huge.

Stu_Ungar said:

Why?

They dont play back at us they just call way too much.

So Axs means that AKs AQs even AJs yes but A5s, A2s ?

1. we have to hit a flush board
2. we need an opponent who either has a flush draw or a big hand he cant let go of. (hang on, that's fit or fold.. that's how they play!!)
3. we start getting our money in against stronger aces (that's their mistake)

In order to crush these players we simply have to exploit their biggest mistake, they call too much and refuse to fold.

Filter your hands by position, have a look at your win rate for 22-77 and AXs where x =/= K,Q,J

Compare that to AJ+ KQs, 77+ The difference should be huge.

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I just did this filter and the win rate was near as damnit double.

pokerman27 said:

I just did this filter and the win rate was near as damnit double.

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So nit up and play more tables!

Other factor to bear in mind is the rake at 2NL is huge so you want to be playing a few large pots rather than a lot of small ones as you wont beat the rake.

Stu_Ungar said:

So nit up and play more tables!

Other factor to bear in mind is the rake at 2NL is huge so you want to be playing a few large pots rather than a lot of small ones as you wont beat the rake.

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Ha, yeah. you're right. My confidence has taken a bashing in the last few months with a pretty meteoric downswing - I've only being playing since last August so I have SO much to learn and undoubtedly SO many more downswings. However I'm gonna get the most out of CC because this is a stand-out forum!

Would love your input into this thread I started:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/sessions-review-169297/

Another filter worth looking at.

Compare your win-rate when you are the PFR to where you cold call

You should see there is a dramatic increase when you raise to when you call.

Best way to do session reviews IMO is to record a 4 table session with Camtasia.

Whilst playing try and say what you are thinking before you act.

Then post it.. people can sit back and say what they think is wrong and why.

If you talk about your assumptions, people can correct them.

Stu_Ungar said:

Another filter worth looking at.

Compare your win-rate when you are the PFR to where you cold call

You should see there is a dramatic increase when you raise to when you call.

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Bang on the money again.

Winrate raising first in: +74.68BB
Limping: -19.92BB

Stu_Ungar said:

Best way to do session reviews IMO is to record a 4 table session with Camtasia.

Whilst playing try and say what you are thinking before you act.

Then post it.. people can sit back and say what they think is wrong and why.

If you talk about your assumptions, people can correct them.

Click to expand...

Good plan - I like it. Will look into this.

Cheap flops suggest junk hands and multiway pots.

Personally I wouldn't cold call from any position, If I am playing I am raising or 3-betting.

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Just to reaffirm what I said in my first post!

pokerman27 said:

Good plan - I like it. Will look into this.

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Defo.

4 tables is the sweet spot when recording.. less is too few and more gets a bit confusing for the observer.

When not recording, I would play more. (nitty will allow this)

Try and record one session per week and just get it out there for people to look at.

You can get a lot more of a sense of how a player plays from this than from hand histories.. and its easier for the observer so you are more likely to get feedback.

Also rat-hole your tables, when you win 2 or 3 stacks get up and leave, people will begin to adjust and you can prevent that by moving once you have shown how nitty you are playing.

GL

Stu_Ungar said:

People limp way too much, people call way too much. So just fold until you have a premium hand then look to get the money in very quickly.

On an K72 board they could have 77,22,K7,K2 but far more likely is KT,K9,K8,K6,K5,K4,K3 QQ JJ TT AQ AJ

So you wait for a premium hand like AK and then look to get the money in fast. Raise preflop, then look to shove the turn.

The mistake people are making is to call too often and too light so don't play hands that are tricky postflop.. you want high Broadway, high pocket pairs and thats it really. Anything else will be getting outdrawn too quickly.

Once they see you start shoving and showing premium hands, then you can steal blinds.

Just play tight and play in position and get your money in with better hands than they tend to get their money in with.. thats it really!

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Really good advice.

Great job, stu! Pokerman, you are on the right track by asking these questions. Make your adjustments that Stu recommended and see where that takes you. Minus a cooler, I think you'll do great.

dg1267 said:

Great job, stu! Pokerman, you are on the right track by asking these questions. Make your adjustments that Stu recommended and see where that takes you. Minus a cooler, I think you'll do great.

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^^

Thanks a lot Stu. Really given me some things to think about.

Stu_Ungar said:

Why?

They dont play back at us they just call way too much.

So Axs means that AKs AQs even AJs yes but A5s, A2s ?

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I don't have many hands but:

99-22 raise= -0.66 BB/Hand
99-22 open limp= +0.90 BB/Hand
99-22 limp behind= +0.50 BB/Hand

A9s-A2s raise= +0.16 BB/Hand
A9s-A2s open limp= no hands
A9s-A2s limp behind= +0.94 BB/Hand

Not enough to write in stone, but I think limping in these situations is okay.

Stu_Ungar said:

In order to crush these players we simply have to exploit their biggest mistake, they call too much and refuse to fold.

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Absolutely agree. I just don't think much crushing goes on before the flop.

Stu_Ungar said:

Filter your hands by position, have a look at your win rate for 22-77 and AXs where x =/= K,Q,J

Compare that to AJ+ KQs, 77+ The difference should be huge.

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Sure the difference is huge. But, if we can play 77-22 and A9s-A2s profitably, why pass it up?

Double-A said:

I don't have many hands but:

99-22 raise= -0.66 BB/Hand
99-22 open limp= +0.90 BB/Hand
99-22 limp behind= +0.50 BB/Hand

A9s-A2s raise= +0.16 BB/Hand
A9s-A2s open limp= no hands
A9s-A2s limp behind= +0.94 BB/Hand

Not enough to write in stone, but I think limping in these situations is okay.



Absolutely agree. I just don't think much crushing goes on before the flop.



Sure the difference is huge. But, if we can play 77-22 and A9s-A2s profitably, why pass it up?

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multitabling.

There are two ways to "crush" 2nl.

The right way.. and the other way.

The right way:

Play ABC poker.
Play very tight and reasonably aggressively.
Don't worry too much about stealing blinds or other level 1.5+ stuff.
Put value in when you are ahead.

This way will ensure the skills you burn into your brain will be useful in the future at higher stakes where you will build on them by adding more advanced play concepts.

The other way:
Limp as often as the table will let you. Play extremely loosely.
Call down fishy minbetters types light.
Nut peddle. Let the table allow you to make monsters and give them every opportunity to pay you off.
Still apply ABC poker post flop, but remember you can getaway with tricks that are obvious to good players.

This way can be very profitable and it will teach you to think outside of the box a little. But it will also infuse a bunch of terrible habits into your play.

I dont have a huge sample size (4k hands since i started tracking), but i play pretty opposite to how everyone says to play these limits. I play relatively loose, and steal blinds often. My main strategy is to be aggressive until they play back at you (which often means a huge hand). I honestly think one of the biggest problems people have in 2NL is not cbetting enough. Yes, many fish will call you down, but most will float the flop then fold the turn when they "realize" you actually have something (even if you dont). Additionally, you make a killing on your monsters. Fish don't notice a lot of things, but I think the one thing they notice is players who raise a lot. I'll see how my strategy works over a better sample, but so far I have been making about 25bb/100 hands.

pokerman27 said:

Firstly, blind stealing. Is there any point in $2NL? Raising for value on the button or cut off with a good hand is fine of course, but making a play with a marginal holding barely works as you'll be donked into or your c-bet will get called.

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You can still "blind steal" with hands that you wouldn't ordinarily raise for value in late position, because position adds value to your hands. However, the hands you choose to raise are key. I'd much rather hold Q9o than 67s against a fish.

pokerman27 said:

I think I limp far too much and my stats off the top of my head are (no PT3 here at the mo) 20/10. I know that's a huge gap but it just seems limping for cheap then getting out the way when you miss is better than raising and getting called and losing what has taken you an hour to achieve.

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You can limp more playing lower stakes, however, I guarantee you you're still limping too much. Raising limpers who play fit or fold postflop is the nuts. And I bet you're often limping hands that don't play well in limped pots. So the best advice is to stop limping, and the next best advice is to limp less.

One other cool thing you can do at $2NL that you can't do anywhere else: If someone raises, 3-bet large, and then shove the flop if you make ace high or better. Watch with hilarity at what you get called by, and how often ace high is actually ahead.

c9h13no3 said:

You can limp more playing lower stakes, however, I guarantee you you're still limping too much. Raising limpers who play fit or fold postflop is the nuts. And I bet you're often limping hands that don't play well in limped pots. So the best advice is to stop limping, and the next best advice is to limp less.

+1, and if this doesn't work out for you, limp even less than less.

One other cool thing you can do at $2NL that you can't do anywhere else: If someone raises, 3-bet large, and then shove the flop if you make ace high or better. Watch with hilarity at what you get called by, and how often ace high is actually ahead.

Playing with you before, I know you just love this move!

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Limping is just stupid, almost always. If I've learned one thing here, it is to limp very, very little. This one rule has made the most improvement in my game.