Advice for a Newbie

Hi everyone

I've been reading a lot of the posts here and can see how knowledgeable you all are so would like a bit of advice please.

I've only been playing online poker since the beginning of June. I never played live or online before but did read a couple of books and lots of articles on poker sites before I started. I'm still reading all the time and looking over my hand histories etc, trying to understand what's happening. It's all very new to me.

I've been playing 4NL FR beginners tables and lost for the first couple of days then started winning a little, lost more etc etc. At the end of 9 days I've played 1800 hands and am up about $6.

But it's all so slow. Those 1800 hands have taken me over 41 hours playing at one table. I've been trying to play fewer hands (TAG style) but I've just downloaded PT3 and discovered that my VPIP /PFR is 42/7.

My main question is - should I just continue working on narrowing my starting hands (practising using the fold button!) or might it be better for me to try playing more tables at once so that I have more playable hands and can get more experience by playing more hands per hour?

Thanks!

No harm in adding another table or two imo. One table of FR is very slow going and may lead you to play weak starting hands (and have a high VPIP) because you get bored waiting for good ones.

To bring your VPIP and PFR closer together: tighten up in general, don't open limp (ever), and cold call less preflop.

GL

lawrelye said:

Hi everyone

I've been reading a lot of the posts here and can see how knowledgeable you all are so would like a bit of advice please.

I've only been playing online poker since the beginning of June. I never played live or online before but did read a couple of books and lots of articles on poker sites before I started. I'm still reading all the time and looking over my hand histories etc, trying to understand what's happening.

DON'T EVER STOP DOING THIS!!!!!

It's all very new to me.

I've been playing 4NL FR beginners tables and lost for the first couple of days then started winning a little, lost more etc etc. At the end of 9 days I've played 1800 hands and am up about $6.

But it's all so slow. Those 1800 hands have taken me over 41 hours playing at one table.

Yup, that's it

I've been trying to play fewer hands (TAG style) but I've just downloaded PT3 and discovered that my VPIP /PFR is 42/7.

Yikes - that needs to be addressed before anything.

My main question is - should I just continue working on narrowing my starting hands (practising using the fold button!) or might it be better for me to try playing more tables at once so that I have more playable hands and can get more experience by playing more hands per hour?

Thanks!

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You are learning the game. It takes a while. DO NOT add any tables until you at least get your VPiP/PFR worked out.
Your future success at the game will be made or broken on getting down a correct thought process - hand by hand. If you are not there with one table, adding more tables will do nothing to help that. Being new to the game it is best for a while to take the approach that you are just learning and playing is your lab work to go along with your reading and study. Again - the mindset is you are a student - NOT A PLAYER TRYING TO MAKE MONEY. You are investing in your education. Your bankroll is only there to tell you if it's working (at least for now). Right now you are a dabbler (as your VPiP indicates). Become a playa then add tables. Once you understand and get a hold of using your position as a tool to play then you could be about ready to expand. But for now that VPiP needs to be cut in half so you're only a run of the mill maniac and not an out of control one.

Play more tables at a time

You seem to have an understanding of poker. To start i'd work on just polishing your game. And then I'd look to add more tables. Because if you have a few leaks you could lose a lot playing a few tables. It's sometimes hard to focus on them all.

Thanks for the replies. Opinion seems to be divided - 2 for & 2 against adding tables. In case it helps, here's my graph from PK3. Would someone be able to tell me what the read line means in terms of my play? It looks bad. Should I be playing more aggressively or is it a result of playing too many hands? And I'm also unsure about the light green "Net Expected" line. Thanks for your help!



After I've played another session today, I will post my stats and hopefully they will have improved...

Here are my stats by position played. Think I'm starting to see where some of the problems are but would welcome your advice.

You're playing wayyyyyyyy too many hands.
When you're watching other players on your table, doesn't it seem kinda odd that most of them are folding ALOT preflop & yet you're in every other hand? Doesn't this strike you as just a bit odd?

I don't think 'adding a table' is the answer. Instead, watch how others are playing each & every hand that's played & get a feel for how they are playing them (ie. bet-sizing, position, etc.). I mean I guess you're watching how they're playing most of the hands anyways.... seeing as you're in most of the hands, lol.

FOLD MORE!!!! Seriously, VPIP 50%'ish'? wowzers! I'm curious, what hands do you actually decide to fold preflop? (do you only fold 3bet pots or somethin'?). Or just like T6o, 83o, T3s stuff (errr.. sorry, I'm guessin' the T3s is a callzz.. obviously cuz it's soooted )

Sorry bud. Don't mean to come off sounding like an azz. I'm just kinda shocked is all.

Sorry I must've misread (not sure where I saw 50% ?)... only '42'.
TAG < Tight Aggressive. Any thoughts on what one might consider to be 'tight' preflop in micro FR?

Thanks Poker Orifice. Yes, I was shocked at that figure too! It's funny I don't feel I play that many hands. I feel as if I'm folding hand after hand. That's why it was really good for me to see the stats.

I play AA KK QQ JJ AK and other PPs (with small ones only if I'm in blinds or LP.) Then I also play AQ AJ AT KQ KJ KT, QJ QT etc but fold if the flop is bad. But I have to admit that when I'm in LP or blinds I will play any hand if there's only one other opponent. I was thinking it would be a good opportunity to see a free or cheap flop. I always fold when the flop does not go my way. Is this bad - should I just stay away from non premium hands completely even if it's just a check on the BB to see the flop?

The VPIP/PFR figure is an average from my very first (awful) days of play and I've tightened up more in later sessions but i know it's still to way too high at 36/6.

Oh, forget to say - I also play suited connectors down to about 67. And A2-A5 suited.

Where can I get one of those hand charts you posted so I can try the slider and see which hands I should be playing?

Your a standard loose (very loose in your case) passive fish.

For your next session try playing only hands that your coming into a pot raising with. Dont limp at all. There's so much wrong with your game atm, maybe get a fr starting hand chart to give you some idea of what you should be playing from which position, stick to it for as long as it takes for you to know what hands to play without looking at it.

I'll start you off, utg play only and I mean only for now, QQ/KK/AA and AK

#1 - Be honest with yourself (which does not seem like it will be a problem for you) You are NOT Tight/Aggressive. As already said, you are Loose/Passive. That is pretty much the worst of both worlds - you are playing hands you shouldn't be playing and giving up on some hands you might want to continue with.

I always fold when the flop does not go my way. Is this bad
It depends. Was there a raise PF? Who initiated the action? How wet/dry is the flop? But when you get in a hand you shouldn't and miss the flop it is correct to fold as you are correcting a mistake and stopping before you lose anymore. The key is don't put yourself in that position.

I have to admit that when I'm in LP or blinds I will play any hand if there's only one other opponent. I was thinking it would be a good opportunity to see a free or cheap flop.
Get a hold of the fact that blinds are super early, way out of position. The way you are playing is a very easy read. Go to flop, miss flop, check - Well now all that has to happen is for villains to bet with maybe less nothing than you have. Kiss that $$ good-bye.

I also play suited connectors down to about 67. And A2-A5 suited.
What is your criteria for playing these? A lot of inexperienced players feel like they are required to see a flop suited connectors, any pair or any suited A. That is not the case. If you are playing these ala play any hand if there's only one other opponent then that is just plain wrong.

#2 - You are going to nail this. You have a great attitude and are evaluating your play and are seeking help. Keep doing that and you will be a terror at your table in no time.

You should play 2 tables on the beginning and playing only good starting hands.

quit while you're ahead, or plan on spending 10s of 1000s of hrs, late nights, frustration, and tilt, while learning the game lol
but maybe you'll be the lucky one who will get rich overnight?
gl
hang around here, read, study, post hands and questions....

Dameyon88 said:

Play more tables at a time

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DO NOT TAKE ADVICE FROM PEOPLE WHOSE POSTS ARE TYPICALLY ONE SHORT SENTENCE.

They are only posting to try to get their post counts up so they can join the freeroll club. They clearly don't care about actually trying to be helpful; if they did, they'd explain their thinking. And frankly, how much game can anyone have who posts for this reason?

Stick with one table for a while. I'm very familiar with multi-tabling in order to play more hands, but it's not optimal for a beginner. It's not even optimal for advanced players. It's a trade-off where multi-tabling makes less per table but more overall.

There's plenty to look for even when you're not in hands. You don't have to be in a pot to watch how the opponents play, assess their styles and tendencies, and improve your reads. PT3 does quite a bit of this for you, but not everything; e.g. timing tells.

^^Timming tells are so over rated it's not even funny.

But i agree 1 table is way better to start off with to learn the game.It lets you watch the individual villains,see what all the action is/was and see all the showdown hands which allow you to make solid notes.

In order to get familiar with FR and bring down your super high VPIP. You need to close the gap between VPIP and your PFR you prob need to go by a chart.

I assume 15/13 would be solid stat for FR.Tighten your range up a lot UTG,UTG+1,UTG+2.Maybe something like 4% for UTG,4% for UTG+1,6% for UTG+2 4% would look like AQs+,AKo,99+.

Widen up your range the closer you get to the BTN.Remember to steal from the blinds that have a high fold BB to steal stat.And widen up your value raising range for ppl that have a low fold to steal stat.

IF YOU ARE FIRST IN THE POT ALWAYS RAISE!!! Don't call a villains open raise with 910s for example if you are UTG+2 and villains opened UTG.You can call a nit's open raise close to the BTN with 22-TT for example in order to set mine,and 3bet JJ+,AKo etc..But remember when you call to set mine and miss give up to aggression.

O download poker stove and mess around with it to see what the vpip ranges look like etc.

Arjonius said:

DO NOT TAKE ADVICE FROM PEOPLE WHOSE POSTS ARE TYPICALLY ONE SHORT SENTENCE.

They are only posting to try to get their post counts up so they can join the freeroll club. They clearly don't care about actually trying to be helpful; if they did, they'd explain their thinking. And frankly, how much game can anyone have who posts for this reason?

Stick with one table for a while. I'm very familiar with multi-tabling in order to play more hands, but it's not optimal for a beginner. It's not even optimal for advanced players. It's a trade-off where multi-tabling makes less per table but more overall.

There's plenty to look for even when you're not in hands. You don't have to be in a pot to watch how the opponents play, assess their styles and tendencies, and improve your reads. PT3 does quite a bit of this for you, but not everything; e.g. timing tells.

Click to expand...

OMFG Arj - I logged on right now expressly to post what you just said. Yeah, don't take advice that cannot or does not take the time or effort to explain how it's going to be of a benefit to you.

Thanks so much everyone. This stuff is really helpful to me. You'll be glad to hear that I've taken your advice and am concentrating on folding A LOT more.

For my last session of 200 hands my stats are a much better 16.5/10.5.



Got to admit though it was hard work using that fold button but I was determined to be disciplined and it paid off. I worked on playing more aggressively and went all-in twice and the flop was in my favour both times. The problem is, most of the players seem to play either very loose - saw stats of 74/9 on one player who seemed to be winning almost every hand they played - and are incaple of folding at all or extremely tight and will just fold if you bet anything at all pre-flop. Means I got next to nothing for my big pairs like AA.

As I said I tried to play more aggressively, bet and raised more but looking at my 3bet stat I'm wondering if I should be raising even more and I also seem to fold most times when anyone 3bets but this is because I don't feel my hand is strong enough and the odds not in my favour. Should I be taking more of a risk?



Thanks again for all your help. You guys are amazing!

orangepeeleo - I tried to stick very close to your suggestion. I waivered a few times and played PPs but don't think this was UTG. Now that I'm getting the hang of the fold button, my next step will be to pay more attention to my hand in relation to my position.

MediaBLITZ - Thanks so much for the encouragement. Yes, I did realise once I saw my stats that I was more Loose/Passive than Tight/Aggressive. I hope my new stats show I'm heading towards the right direction! The advice to play suited connectors and A-low hands was from a poker beginners video. Don't worry - I've stopped doing it now.

Arjonius & JOEBOB69 - Yes, I spend a lot of time watching the players when I'm not in the hand and writing notes on each one. I actually really enjoy that part.

JOEBOB69 said:

^^Timming tells are so over rated it's not even funny.

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In general, I agree with you. However, there are certain players who give them off regularly. They're definitely in the minority, but knowing who they are and in what situations their tells are reliable can add nicely to your profits.

lawrelye said:

As I said I tried to play more aggressively, bet and raised more but looking at my 3bet stat I'm wondering if I should be raising even more and I also seem to fold most times when anyone 3bets but this is because I don't feel my hand is strong enough and the odds not in my favour. Should I be taking more of a risk?

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A good 3bet stat is somewhere between 5% and 10%.

You should be folding to the majority of 3bets, in the micros most villains are 3betting for value rather than 3bet bluffing. It will take a while before you are able identify exploitable spots where villains are likely to be 3betting light, so for now it is safer to fold everything but your premiums.

micromachine said:

A good 3bet stat is somewhere between 5% and 10%.

You should be folding to the majority of 3bets, in the micros most villains are 3betting for value rather than 3bet bluffing. It will take a while before you are able identify exploitable spots where villains are likely to be 3betting light, so for now it is safer to fold everything but your premiums.

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Oh that's good to know. It seems that not much bluffing goes on and when I've tried to fight back thinking someone must be bluffing because they play so many hands it has not ended well...

A couple of things to consider:

- More competent villains will take position into account, so they will 3bet a stronger range vs your UTG raise compared to your BTN raise.

- Flatting 3bets when OOP is bad!

- The 3bet stat takes quite a long time to converge, it is only really meaningful after you have a few hundred hands on the villain.

Lawrelye - this is obviously too small a sample to be dogmatic about but 25% VPiP in first position is WAY TOO HIGH. That should be your smallest VPiP.

#1 - for now play only premium hands on that position - no speculation allowed.

#2 - NEVER, EVER limp from there (for now). Always come in strong from UTG (and you better have the goods with that too). There will usually be that one guy in late position with TJ that has to call and face off against your KK.

Think seat 1 is the CO not UTG isn't it?

Why would you ever want to limp from UTG MB?