ABC poker at 25nl = breakeven winrate?

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mottotom27

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By this i mean straightforward tight aggressive poker. value betting when strong, giving up when weak. no fancy plays - no double/triple barrels, only 3bet strong hands, fold to lots of 3bets. only going to showdown when confident you have the best hand. By playing this predictable style (which wins comfortably at 2nl and 5nl) is it true that you will breakeven at 25nl?
 
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kittybet

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Hello,
If you play poker, try to win BIG and not lose small or getting even.
If you can WIN at NL5, then its better to play NL5 then getting even at NL25.

However, guys at NL25, as far as I know, are very mixed, there are nits, sharks and lots of fish. Your ABC might work vs some fish, might fail vs maniacs and vs good players...

IMO, it would be better to play those games that allow you to build at each round a read on the villains, those games at which you can stay alert and aware of the game without having headaches... I mean, that tiny place at table where you can play A poker (not abc).

But here again, its just my 2 cent opinion...

GL and fuk the variance
 
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GWU73

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I have found that 25nl is about the bottom of where I can play a more deceptively aggressive game. Fold equity actually exists as more than a theoretical concept. Also, the very nature of ABC poker is such that it really only beats the worst players. If most players are playing nearly the same way (abc), most players will be small winners or small losers. To be profitable against even semi thinking players you have to have some deception built into your game. You do not need a lot, but you do need enough to pick up some pots without a hand, and to get paid when you do make that big hand. The best (not easiest) way I know of adding deception (especially vs tracking software) is to try to exploit (or avoid) each player independently. The easiest way is to use spurts of exceptionally aggressive play to steal small pots & disguise your good hands. Typically I like to do this when I have been playing tight, or the table is not giving a lot of action. Just open your ranges for an orbit or two (until you are getting action) then slam back into tight gear and hope to get a hand while your image is still conducive to getting called down light. (all these years later and Doyle is still right)
 
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mottotom27

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I have no intention of actually playing an ABC game when i reach 25nl, since i understand to be a big winner you have to make a lot of more creative plays like 4betting/defending against the guy who 3bets you a lot, defending more from the blinds (often with a 3bet), double/triple barrel the regs etc.

The point of this thread was to get an idea of the difficulty of 25nl, since i expect there will be many players out there who have not adjusted and are still playing ABC poker and do these players typically breakeven, or are they small losers or small winners?
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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I think at 25nl you will see some competent regs many planing 5+ tables. I think with good table and seat position looking for idiots you could probably be a breakeven or small winner.

Read up on levels of poker thought and try to note what level each player is playing at, this will help you when you come to planning a hand.
 
DonSifu

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Not sure about NL25, but in my poker room where i'm a supervisor, we have a NL10 game and it plays just like a 2-4Limit game. I mean there are tons of 'chasers', and outrageous three, four, and five bets with weak holdings, $5k pots won with just Queen high, etc.
I think it really boils down to a table by table basis, and player dynamics.
 
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I play 25nl poker mostly. I can't say I am a big winner, though I am a small one. The kinds of players you find at these tables are diverse. some people are good enough to fold, ergo some people are able, and do, bluff effectively. you still have fish, you have various degrees of tags and lags. It has a wide, wide range of player style and ability levels. cbets have good success on most tables, but some have a lot of floaters.

straightforward tag will do alright, but a lot of people won't pay you off as nicely as they would at lower levels when you make a hand. So expect the results to take longer to achieve.
 
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mottotom27

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Not sure about NL25, but in my poker room where i'm a supervisor, we have a NL10 game and it plays just like a 2-4Limit game. I mean there are tons of 'chasers', and outrageous three, four, and five bets with weak holdings, $5k pots won with just Queen high, etc.
I think it really boils down to a table by table basis, and player dynamics.

When i say 25NL i mean the buy-in not the blinds. This is online I'm talking about here.
 
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mottotom27

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I play 25nl poker mostly. I can't say I am a big winner, though I am a small one. The kinds of players you find at these tables are diverse. some people are good enough to fold, ergo some people are able, and do, bluff effectively. you still have fish, you have various degrees of tags and lags. It has a wide, wide range of player style and ability levels. cbets have good success on most tables, but some have a lot of floaters.

straightforward tag will do alright, but a lot of people won't pay you off as nicely as they would at lower levels when you make a hand. So expect the results to take longer to achieve.

Nice answer, thanks. I'm playing 10nl right now so now i know what to expect when i move up.
 
thetick33

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By this i mean straightforward tight aggressive poker. value betting when strong, giving up when weak. no fancy plays - no double/triple barrels, only 3bet strong hands, fold to lots of 3bets. only going to showdown when confident you have the best hand. By playing this predictable style (which wins comfortably at 2nl and 5nl) is it true that you will breakeven at 25nl?

I dont understand all the break downs or terms you all use. Correct me if wrong but when you say 25 no limit you mean 10 cent 25 cent 25.00 buy in?

when I played before i played this or higher the most I played online I won money 90%of days.

My style is pretty much wait for hits fold fold fold once I have wins double triple etc.. open a bit more.

I got get the 3 bets or none of that stuff you all talk about. I get some of the strategy and what people would suggest BUT BUT BUT.

If you play the same games you MUST ADAPT you have to have variation not just in hands but betting etc.. or you will get OWNED but the truly skillful.

I true good news? I made it up to 5 - 10 no limit and online and higher live in the past and is always bad players. Is always ways you can progress and grow as a player. Is always people you can trick or manipulate regularly lol.

You have to know there play see their style be able to turn tables on them at right points etc..

I approach ring like a bigger mtt pay in. Is same approach take time get adjusted read people see what they do what hands they play pick on weaknesses set traps take betting habits confuse them etc..

Is hard to do all that from scratch lol or when just starting but if you cannot find fish at your table your the fish:) Is nothing truer to me then that statement.

Overtime good players would eat you up but how many good players are there at that table at that level daily this is what you have to determine.

I might try this in a few months show you all my hands for a week or so play this style you suggest just to show the results. Be interesting for sure. I still think if you played this style and played truly only the best hands in a weeks time say 40 hours? You would win and be ahead. Not as far as you should have been is called a rock I guess in poker terms lol. They heavy hitters though the good players would beat you so would have to avoid them haha. Yet you could find the guys you could win over and over against just my humble guess.
 
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mottotom27

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Thanks for the great advice mate. i am now moving up to 10nl and i was worried i would have to make a lot of adjustments and fancy plays vs the regs like 4 bet bluffing but it seems like i don't have to. I now realise that just by playing solid and straightforward with good table selection, i should be able to confidently beat 10nl/25nl. I still expect to need to apply a little bit of extra pressure vs the regs especially at 25nl, maybe double barrelling with equity vs the floaters a few times, but only a little bit - not getting too out of line. I now understand that game theory and balancing probably aren't too applicable at these limits and i would be better off just playing solid ABC and should do well
 
Fknife

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i was worried i would have to make a lot of adjustments and fancy plays vs the regs like 4 bet bluffing but it seems like i don't have to. I now realise that just by playing solid and straightforward with good table selection, i should be able to confidently beat 10nl/25nl. I still expect to need to apply a little bit of extra pressure vs the regs especially at 25nl, maybe double barrelling with equity vs the floaters a few times, but only a little bit - not getting too out of line.
You are throwing various ideas around, they are all part of a "solid" approach imo. If there is a great spot to bluff, you bluff -> thats ABC for me. Not: not doing something, lets say +EV, only because my fixed ABC (or "solid"; I dont know if "solid" == ABC for you) does not allow me to do it. Adjusting is part of being solid imo.

I know a guy who crushed 25NL Zoom and 50NL Zoom and is now taking shots at 100NL Zoom (quite successful as far as I've seen) by JUST playing solid. He knows a bit of theory though... I can PM you the "details".

I now understand that game theory and balancing probably aren't too applicable at these limits [..]
Ofc it applies, its still the same game after all.
 
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mottotom27

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You are throwing various ideas around, they are all part of a "solid" approach imo. If there is a great spot to bluff, you bluff -> thats ABC for me. Not: not doing something, lets say +EV, only because my fixed ABC (or "solid"; I dont know if "solid" == ABC for you) does not allow me to do it. Adjusting is part of being solid imo.

my point was that (correct me if i'm wrong) a little bit of extra aggression is needed, but only a little. Some of the "regs" take it way too far by feeling the need to 4bet bluff every time someone resteals their button steal, as well as double and triple barrel bluffing in spots that aren't called for just for "balance" (to show they can show up with weak hands as well as strong hands in these spots). Whilst playing in a risk averse ABC style whilst not optimal, it reduces variance (and subsequently tilt) and could still be very profitable in these games if you add in a little bit of well-timed aggression in some spots, whilst attempting a more creative game will often lead to spewy, overaggressive plays or "reg wars" when you could have been exploiting the fish or simply moved tables.

I know a guy who crushed 25NL Zoom and 50NL Zoom and is now taking shots at 100NL Zoom (quite successful as far as I've seen) by JUST playing solid. He knows a bit of theory though... I can PM you the "details".

if you could do that, that would be great. cheers :)
 
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