A8s on a JJ8 board

Abramo Della Luce

Abramo Della Luce

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I have been thinking about a certain situation and am not sure what would be the best play. I haven't played this hand so I don't have all the parameters, but this is how it goes in my mind.

Game is 6 handed and hero gets As8s and is in the BB.
A TAG player (not a nit) in middle position raises to 3BB and hero calls (hoping for a very strong hand or a nut flush draw).
Then the flop comes and is Jh Jc 8c.

I guess the best play is donk betting like 2/3 pot for protection against overcards, straight draws and flush draws.
But then I started thinking that by playing this way, we give away a lot of information about our hand.
In a thinking opponents mind our range becomes very narrow, because there's a ton of hands we wouldn't play like this at all.
QQ+ are all hands we would 3 bet with preflop.
Any J or 88 we would not donk bet (to not scare them away) and just let them cbet.
If we would have an open ended straight draw or a flush draw I also wouldn't bet and hope they don't cbet too big, so I can draw cheaply.
Most other hands, like K8 or other low eights are too weak to call with preflop.
Feels like the only hands we can have with that line are A8, TT or 99, or maybe 78s or 89s, although I think that those last 2 hands might be a bit too weak to donk bet with.

So my question is, do you think we still should play it that way (because it seems to be the best way to play it, purely thinking about the hands and protection) or should we play it differently to not give our opponent such a detailed information about our hand, and how could we play it differently?
 
fly2tsky

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I would do check - call/ or even check - raise if you r not so sure what your opponent is holding. you have btm pair top kicker and its not that great to go. Who would call your 2/3 pot bet? 99+ right?, or at least suits cards for a flush. In any either way you r dealing with some very tough decisions after.
 
Abramo Della Luce

Abramo Della Luce

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I would do check - call/ or even check - raise if you r not so sure what your opponent is holding. you have btm pair top kicker and its not that great to go. Who would call your 2/3 pot bet? 99+ right?, or at least suits cards for a flush. In any either way you r dealing with some very tough decisions after.
I don't mind them folding and, honestly, that's what I'm hoping for a bit.
Is it not too risky to let them have the opportunity to get a free turn, while there are so many scare cards?
I mean, if they check too, and on the turn a T,J,Q,K,A or any club comes i feel we are in a difficult spot. If they reraise me, I can easily let it go. If they call, I would have to re-evaluate on the turn.
But maybe my 2/3 pot bet might be even slightly too small and I could even make it 3/4 pot bet, to give more incentive to fold.
 
poliaris747

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It all depends on your opponent, you look at his style of play? We had to make a map of its strong and weak characteristics of the style of play! And also it depends on what kind of story you have created games at the poker table !!
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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"I guess the best play is donk betting like 2/3 pot for protection against overcards, straight draws and flush draws."


Firstly if we are out of position we should just be folding in the first place. Hell, even 3 betting here is better than flat calling.

And secondly if we are calling. Donking out here? seriously no thats not good, villain can then just fold a lot of weaker hands that he would have made a continuation bet with this allowing him to play too perfectly.

Thirdly, we are not betting for "protection". We are never betting for protection. Please extract this from your poker vocabulary forever. If we are inclined to donk out here it is probably for value.

"So my question is, do you think we still should play it that way (because it seems to be the best way to play it, purely thinking about the hands and protection) or should we play it differently to not give our opponent such a detailed information about our hand, and how could we play it differently?"

The best way to play is to fold pre. Then we dont have to worry about playing a difficult spot oop.

And then never say protection again, ever.
 
Abramo Della Luce

Abramo Della Luce

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Firstly if we are out of position we should just be folding in the first place. Hell, even 3 betting here is better than flat calling.



Indeed, I agree, 3 betting is probably more interesting in this spot than calling. If I would have an unsuited hand, i would never flat call it though and just fold.
Probably my looseness comes from the fact that I have been playing a lot of heads up games and spin & go.

And secondly if we are calling. Donking out here? seriously no thats not good, villain can then just fold a lot of weaker hands that he would have made a continuation bet with this allowing him to play too perfectly.

Thirdly, we are not betting for "protection". We are never betting for protection. Please extract this from your poker vocabulary forever. If we are inclined to donk out here it is probably for value.


The best way to play is to fold pre. Then we dont have to worry about playing a difficult spot oop.

And then never say protection again, ever.
My idea behind donking and 'protection' is that, yes, I probably have the best hand, but there are a lot of overcards in the villain's range. I will be in a difficult spot oop on the turn if one of those overcards come.

Do you think check raising would be a better choice than donkink, if he makes the cbet?
 
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mikey481968

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be care some thing like that got me in trouble i had full house with k10 ///// 10 jj on the floop will this guy had a j another jack comes out on the turn and bam i lose
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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[/b]
Do you think check raising would be a better choice than donkink, if he makes the cbet?

Depends on villain, if they are weighted towards AK/AQ or baby pairs and are capable of betting two or three streets without improving I like the check call.

Best we can probably do is check call down and hope we are good, unless they clearly tell us we are not.

I still really hate being in this position to start with though.
 
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vassiriki

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"I guess the best play is donk betting like 2/3 pot for protection against overcards, straight draws and flush draws."


Firstly if we are out of position we should just be folding in the first place. Hell, even 3 betting here is better than flat calling.

And secondly if we are calling. Donking out here? seriously no thats not good, villain can then just fold a lot of weaker hands that he would have made a continuation bet with this allowing him to play too perfectly.

Thirdly, we are not betting for "protection". We are never betting for protection. Please extract this from your poker vocabulary forever. If we are inclined to donk out here it is probably for value.

"So my question is, do you think we still should play it that way (because it seems to be the best way to play it, purely thinking about the hands and protection) or should we play it differently to not give our opponent such a detailed information about our hand, and how could we play it differently?"

The best way to play is to fold pre. Then we dont have to worry about playing a difficult spot oop.

And then never say protection again, ever.

i, in general, agree with this comment. however, i also am starting to get a fan of defending bbs as they are cheaper to see a flop (offer great value) and provide unpredictability against opposition. still, i generally play like this at the late stages of tournaments (when the blind increases x2 or similar).

your play, as you said, is giving too many information about your hand but only the pros would get the advantage of it but still some players might also be afraid of if you have a "j" in your hand and still call you with a better hand and you might lose some chunk of your chips just to "protect" your hand. so, yes checking is a better option here but if you aren't playing a turbo tournament, then also it'd be much better if you wouldn't call in the first place.
 
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Dingospo

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I would raise half of pot. If someone goes all in, you found the person who has third J. :D
 
Clark Kent

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Just call and wait to see if someone has a better cards. It is very complicated to play in that case. I am not sure what I would do in this position. :(
 
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